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ctfchallenge | all galleries >> Challenge 72 : Signs >> Challenge 72 : Eligible! > Sign of the Times *
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09-JAN-2005 Richard Hopkins

Sign of the Times *

Victoria Station, London.

Sorry for the pun.

Canon EOS 10D ,Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX DG ASP HSM
1/8s f/9.5 at 24.0mm iso400 hide exif
Full EXIF Info
Date/Time09-Jan-2005 17:49:00
MakeCanon
ModelEOS 10D
Flash UsedNo
Focal Length24 mm
Exposure Time1/8 sec
Aperturef/9.5
ISO Equivalent400
Exposure Bias
White Balance (-1)
Metering Mode
JPEG Quality (6)
Exposure Program
Focus Distance

other sizes: small medium original auto
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Richard Hopkins 13-Jan-2005 20:01
Thanks ISO. I'll be counting on your vote next week then. ;)
iso320013-Jan-2005 19:35
'oooh that's nice'

Sorry - couldn't resist :)
ctfchallenge13-Jan-2005 19:31
People have posted their reworks in the entry thread. I've seen it done to others and it's been done on mine a few times. I love seeing thier ideas - I think it's a great great learning tool, it's just that it should be done as a link not an embed so it doesn't detract from the original, especially if it actually IS better.

I think we SHOULD retouch others images - it helps the shooter learn and it helps the editor learn. Working on something you wouldnt' have shot yourself does open up your mind. I'd like to encourage more people to do that. But again, all I ask is to just link intead of embed.

And yes, I agree, "Pretty picture" doesn't help us learn.



No Richard, I wasnt talking about you. :) I'm talking about when people rework someone elses shot and then place it right below the other person's entry. I'm surprised you've not seen it done. For ex - this didn't bother me because it was done in fun and I laughed really hard - but go look at my billboard entry. Pops put his rework under my entry. This time I thought it was fun and it didnt' bother me. Although, he did beat me to doing it after the suggestion was made, so I didn't bother. But, in other situations, especially if it's done with a real newbie, it can rattle thier confidence.

Of course if you err and accidentally embed, that's different. You can excuse yourself and ask someone to remove it and change it to a link if you need help. No harm. :)

Lonnit
Richard Hopkins 13-Jan-2005 19:11
I feel I should add my 2 cents.

There are no prizes in the competition. The only thing that can be gained is better photography. I'm grateful to Rod for pointing out another way the photo could have been taken, and the way he went about it was good too - just suggestions. It would be a different kettle of fish if someone pasted the new crop in with a comment that could be read as 'this version is better than yours'. As it is I think I've learnt something about taking shots with people in - one of my weaknesses I think.

As it says in the rules 'Challenges reach their full potential when the dialogue becomes as important as the photos themselves'. The added challenge seems to be doing this without offending. Perhaps we should add a rule to say 'Please don't retouch someone elses image'.

I'm happy to be looking at my photography another way, spending this long on one photo makes a change from my usual technique of putting about 20-30 onto a web page and getting general, but not very constructive, 'oooh that's nice' feedback about the batch from my friends and family.

Richard
Paul Donovan 13-Jan-2005 18:33
Oh Gawd, what have I started!!! It was ME posting my attempts at other people's idea variations in my own picture thread (if that makes sense - not them posting in my pic). I'd hate it if anyone else did that, and I'm surprised they ever have. I guess the answer is, don't do it, I never have before until this challenge. What I was struggling with was getting a link in there without pbase embedding it!!! Rod, I think we're in agreement. Good talking to you all, I fear i've taken this a little off-topic!
ctfchallenge13-Jan-2005 18:29
I like the shot.

The discussions are the real point of why we're here - to learn.

As for embedding personal variations by critiquers, I really do NOT like that. I think it detracts from the entry shot. I think it's GREAT to take someone elsed pix and do whatever you like to them and show them to the orig photog, but they should be linked, not embedded. I once embedded some varients in my own entry thread, but I'd never embed my work into someone elses entry thread. I just don't like it when I see someone else's varient sitting right there in the thread. I know that nobody has the "I can do it better than you" attitude, but I think it does make the person feel somewhat badly. When I see them pop up under my entries I always wish they'd have been a link instead. I think it's a great learning technique to be able to actually see what someone else would have done, but I think it's impolite to plaster it there and leave it permanently. A link is not intrusive, and it respects the original photographer. I mean, would you walk up to the Mona Lisa and paste your version next to it right there in the museum? LOL! Sure, bring it in your pocket, take it out and discuss it with the other viewers there, but then slip it back into your pocket please. :)

Lonnit - hoping I haven't offended anyone
Rod 13-Jan-2005 18:20
Sorry Paul, I did take your comments the wrong way. Maybe the answer would be to post the revised shots in the main thread on DPReview. It's not until I see the altered version that I can see if any of the suggestions have any merit, as quite a few times when someone has followed my suggestions the shot has been ruined:-)& I do know wot you mean then:-)
Paul Donovan 13-Jan-2005 18:02
Rod, you've completely misunderstood my point, perhaps I didn't make it clear. I'll try again....I'm the biggest fan of comments/critiques/suggestions on this site, i'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't as I put so many under photos myself and appreciate those from others. My point was that if you post several different versions of a shot (as I did this time) based on one or two people's opinion here or there (especially if they end up embedded in the post as mine were!), or even give away too much about what was done to the shot, it kind of takes away from the impact IMHO of the original - I'm not talking about dropping critiques/suggestions. FWIW, I much prefer the original crop as the arrivals/departures are signs too and they got lost and also the shot is not so sharp when cropped to that level so if it is one or the other i'm with the first. But after 4 or 5 more posts of images (and in other cases detailed debates on how much post-processing was done) IMHO it takes away from the impact of the original idea and if you're keen to see your photos do well, might sub-consciously result in votes lost as people could even get bored of re-visiting it. I know what I mean :)
Rod 13-Jan-2005 10:19
I really like the crop Richard it has some focal points now & to me a lot more interest. Your original shot is a better representation of a railway station, the crop is a better representation of the subject of this challenge "Signs" Showing the architectural nature of the roof only detracts from the challenge theme & the added interest of the people. As for these debates detracting from the votes we might get makes me a bit speechless. (Shut up Dorys & Lonnit) What a boring place this would be without some in depth discussion on our different photographic viewpoints. The only viewpoint about a shot that matters is that of the photographer who took the shot, the rest of the viewpoints are just interesting views of others & no pressure to change the shot should be felt by the photographer.
Richard Hopkins 12-Jan-2005 18:47
I've done a recrop:http://www.esses.co.uk/competitions/signofthetimesrecrop.htm . I won't enter it though, I've decided I prefer this version. I'll leave the recrop up for people to view.
alexeig12-Jan-2005 15:44
Nice b/ws and good placement of people, not easy at all
Paul Donovan 12-Jan-2005 13:01
Richard, when I saw the original crop comment I nearly replied to say NO! I like as is, but as you say it would be a good and different photograph. I like the fact that the crop you've chosen made this recognisable to me as an old train station and I think you'd lose some of the architectural feel to it if you cropped as advised. Why don't you give it a go and post here/elsewhere, after the challenge if you prefer. (I must admit when my post got full of possible re-posting of my shots with advice I think after a while it detracts from the shot and everyone ends up divided on which is best which probably affects your votes somehow!). I like this one just as it is and if you don't post a re-crop I'll be none the wiser!
Rod 12-Jan-2005 10:23
The roof does give scale & interest to a shot of a transit station & it a good shot. But I just saw a very good people shot with the crop. As I said in the Signs thread Richard, you should definitely leave it as to how you saw & wanted it.
ctfchallenge12-Jan-2005 00:57
I lke the big vacant top half. It give architectural scale and balance to your photo. theFly
Richard Hopkins 11-Jan-2005 20:07
I'll get a reply in quick while pbase is up...

That crop would produce another photo that I hadn't even considered, and you're right, it is a good way to crop it, possibly better than the way I have it currently.

The main target of the photo for me was the departure board, that was my 'sign'. I also quite liked the roof strut and the way they overlap giving an odd sense of perspective.

I'm 90% certain I should leave the photo as is, if only because pbase probably won't let me change it. But I'd be interested to know what other people think - which version looks better, and which do they think I should use. The main reason I don't want to change it is because the picture as it is, is the one I saw in my mind. To have the picture as someone else would have taken it seems strange to me.

It does bug me that the girl in the bottom right is such a minor part of the photo. What you can't see is just off to the left, someone was taking a picture of her - I think she was posing for his photo.
Rod 11-Jan-2005 10:25
Nice shot Richard but the top half of the shot seems to make the people & shop sign less of a focal point. To me it works best with a crop down to the top of the shop making it a more interesting shot. Well done.
Richard Hopkins 10-Jan-2005 23:00
No, I used a tripod. I had been taking long exposures all day and had the tripod with me so it was no bother to use. I could easily have taken this handheld though and bumped the ISO up a notch or used a wider aperture with little effect on the photo.
ctfchallenge10-Jan-2005 22:13
Like the mood of this one, with some people still and others moving/blurred. Was this handheld???!