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Phil Douglis | all galleries >> Galleries >> Gallery Fourteen: Expressing the meaning of buildings and structures > Forbidden City moat, Beijing, China, 2004
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19-JUN-2004

Forbidden City moat, Beijing, China, 2004

I often seek the essence of a building by shooting something else, using the building itself as context rather than subject matter. I do this here to comment on how China’s emperors protected themselves within a walled city for nearly 500 years. They built a 30-foot high wall around their palace complex, and then surrounded it with a 160-foot wide moat. The moat is my subject, not the Forbidden City. Instead of just shooting the moat from anywhere, I walked to a corner, and created a frame within my camera’s frame out of the walls of the moat as they came together. My 24mm wideangle converter lens exaggerates thrust of these walls, making the moat look even wider than it really is. The wideangle perspective reduces the size of the tower at the corner of the walled city, emphasizing the width of the moat and the thickness of its walls. The foggy weather creates an ethereal atmosphere, a perfect context for the shimmering reflection of the Forbidden City adrift in the waters of the moat.

Canon PowerShot G5
1/400s f/4.0 at 7.2mm full exif

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Phil Douglis01-Mar-2008 20:46
You learn a valuable lesson from this image, Vera. Where we stand determines what we say. Be sure to review my gallery on Vantage Point, which demonstrates how our camera position influences both content and form.
Guest 01-Mar-2008 18:47
For me this is the most powerful of all the photos. I would have likely captured the reflection but not have included the wall. It reminds me to take photos from different positions. Move in, move up, move down, move sideways...always move.
Phil Douglis11-Aug-2007 21:26
I like your image, Daniel, for its antiquity. I posted a comment for you. Our interpretations differ in that I've included the wall here to stress the moat, and I did not "colorize" this image. I let the misty, foggy, polluted air speak for itself. This is China, yesterday and today. Your image is pure yesterday.
Guest 11-Aug-2007 21:17
I saw your photo about a year ago...
Finally I had a chance to visit Beijing few weeks ago.
There I was... Same place...
http://www.pbase.com/daniel_asimov/image/82889943

Hope you like it... I had to do lots of photoshop and adjustments by exagerating the colors... Originally this photo looks gray with lack of colors due to the heavy air pollution.
Phil Douglis30-Mar-2005 21:56
Thanks, Alister. Your image and my image, when viewed sequentially, provide an invaluable lesson. It's not WHAT we choose to shoot that is important. Rather, it is HOW and WHY we choose to shoot it as we do, that makes the difference in terms of expression.

Glad you like my approach as much as I enjoyed yours. I can also see why you feel this photograph reminds you of Marek's images, particularly the opening picture in his remarkable "Intersections" series at:http://www.pbase.com/warno/image/34344540 Our subject matter might be totally different, but the expression and the means of expression is quite similar.

alibenn30-Mar-2005 11:55
sorry, Marek!!
alibenn30-Mar-2005 11:54
An excellent interpretation of this interesting spot. As you said when you posted your comment of my image of the same place:http://www.pbase.com/alibenn/image/39878728 yours is forbidden 100%, whereas mine is more of a graphic representation of the location, focussing more of the beauty of the place. I'll be back at that corner again sometime and see what else I can do!! I like this very much and don't personally find the juxtaposition in anyway distracting, I think it flows well. It reminds me of Maleks work in many ways.
Phil Douglis27-Feb-2005 03:09
Thanks, Dandan, Marek teaches me much everytime he leaves a comment. I am glad you are learning from him, as well. Be sure to take a long look at some of his own images when you get a chance.
Guest 31-Jan-2005 15:52
Phil,
I love the composition here. The wall created a bearer, combine with emphasized moat, they made the Forbidden City seems so far away and untouchable…
I didn’t realize that symmetry can “multiply the visual strength of an otherwise typical structure.” (from Marek’s comments)
This is really a good place to learn, not just from your pictures, also from your discussions with others…
Thanks!
Phil Douglis12-Jan-2005 23:44
Thank, River King, for this comment. Yes, my eye moves back and forth as well -- I am glad it does, because I want t viewer to be enchanted by that lovely reflection, yet always come back to the reality of that moat and wall designed to keep everyone but the rich and powerful out. The more you look, the more you struggle, right? That, too, is good. This is meant to be a pretty image, but rather one to stimulate ideas about a city that is truly Forbidden. As i said in my explanation, i use the moat here as the subject, and the city as context. We are used to seeing such pictures made the other way around.
Guest 12-Jan-2005 10:14
hi, Phil, this is an interesting photo. I am just going to tell you how my eyes feel about the image:). I said it was interesting because my eyes naturally attracted to the tower at the back of image, but then the stone wall at the front of image just kept me looking back. So my eyes are constantly fighting!!! :)

Overall I think this is a very creative composition. If I was there, I would most likely to try the same composition. But I don't think I can keep looking at this photo, because my eyes are struggling on which part of image they should focus on :).
Phil Douglis06-Dec-2004 21:46
Glad you enjoy this image, Dave. You see what I wanted you to see, and its meaning is indeed both foreboding and forbidding. I achieved this by finding the right spot with the right lens on the right day.
Dave Wyman06-Dec-2004 21:13
I enjoy this photograph. To me, with the almost aggressive push of concrete in the foreground against the viewer (me), and the broad width of the moat (admittedly emphasized by the wide angle lens), this picture portrays at once something both foreboding as well as forbidden.

Dave
Phil Douglis04-Dec-2004 04:42
Great question, Likyin. You are a woman of few words, but you always use them beautifully. For me, as a student of history, I can't appreciate the present, or make guesses about the future, unless I understand the past. I enjoy evoking the past in my images because it can remind us of our folly, our mistakes, our pride, our arrogance, and our triumphs. This image reminds us that even the biggest and deepest moats and the highest walls can't protect and isolate forever. Eventually all things will change, new ideas supplant old ideas, new rulers replace old rulers, and new people bring new ideas to enlighten their world. That, Likyin, is why I so much enjoy evoking the past in my images. Thank you for this good question. It comes to me from a good mind, and a good person!
Guest 04-Dec-2004 02:06
I was just thinking, why do we enjoy so much to evoke the past?
Phil Douglis01-Dec-2004 03:03
Glad you understand my point, Likyin, but I am sorry we can't agree that this image works as a form of expression. I used my corner vantage point and the wideangle lens to exaggerate the formidable scale and appearance of this moat. As Marek says in his comment below, I've exploited symmetry through geometry and reflection. I've multiplied the visual strength of an otherwise typical structure to tell the story of the OLD Forbidden City, as expressively as I could.

I think you still wish I had made a picture I did NOT choose to make. One that lives in the present, yet contrasted to the past. I have already made such images, Likyin. A perfect example is my shot of the River Arno in Florence, taken from the Ponte Vecchio at: http://www.pbase.com/pnd1/image/22388317 I show a Florence that has hardly changed in 600 years, yet I also contrast it to a tiny contemporary boat in the lower right hand corner.

I also believe that expressive images can do the very thing you seem to doubt: to let the PRESENT EVOKE THE PAST.
This picture is not intended as an illustration for an encyclopedia. I want it to take viewers back to another place and another time, using their own imaginations. You are looking at this image too literally, Likyin. You ignore my use of symbolism here. You are blind to the abstraction created by the mist. You won't acknowledge the symbolic value of the scale incongruity I've created by exaggerating the size of the moat. And you can't appreciate the overwhelming human value it expresses: "Forbidden!" You think I've created a superficial description, whereas I think I've created an expressive evocation of a mysterious and exotic historical experience.

I disagree with you that this image is made for instruction, reference, and illustration. Of course everyone knows about moats and emperors. But this image take us beyond just knowing about them. It can make us feel their power, and their exclusivity. I'm sorry if you can't relate to it, Likyin, but I did want to give you the benefit of my thinking, and I hope this response might give you some more insight into photographic expression.
Guest 01-Dec-2004 02:27
Well, Phil, I did get what the photographer wanted to tell, and I knew you intended to show what it WAS instead of what it IS by the image. The fact is, I got your point without reading your capture, because I already know you, know the subject, and also the time.

The intention you repeated again and again above and bellow, is exactly the thing I want to doubt. Why is it meaningful to let the present tell the history? It will be very useful if a cyclopedia wants a picture for the word MOAT, which was interpreted thoroughly here. And I also believe that most of your pbase readers knew emperors, not only the Chinese one, loved to use moat for protection, without reading your image. What's more, none of us is going to built one with this perfect reference, are we?

I mean, the image is more about instruction than expression, and I won't question it if someone else took it. But, Phil, I did expect you are the one who could express something more.
Phil Douglis30-Nov-2004 22:50
Thanks, Likyin, for leaving your usual insightful criticism. You say this image is misleading because my emphasis on "rejection" is long out of date. I admit it. I am emphasizing a closed world here. As I explain in my caption, I am "commenting on how China's emperors protected themselves within a walled city for nearly 500 years." I want to make my viewers go back into history, and feel the very essence of rejection that you mention in your criticism. You imply that by doing this, I am not telling the truth of what IS. But I am telling the truth of what WAS! And that is the point of my picture, Likyin!

If I had, as you suggest, included a contemporary element to contrast to this rejective mood, I would no longer be telling the historical story I wanted to tell.

Your strong criticism of my picture, Likyin, raises a critical point, and I thank you for it. To understand the meaning of a photo, we must view it in the context the photographer gives us. I gave you that context in my caption, yet you took my picture out of that context, and instead saw it as a journalistic "lie." I did not intended this image to be journalistic, Likyin. I see it as a historical comment, a personal photographic expression that recalls the memory of The Forbidden City!

I hope my explanation will help you consider the critical importance of context whenever you read meaning into a picture. Once you take a picture out of its intended context, you will see only what YOU want to see in it, not what the photographer was trying to express.

Thanks so much, Likyin, for this critique. You are helping me teach, and I thank you for it.
Guest 23-Nov-2004 14:31
The image would have been excellent if it was shot more than a century ago, when, the forbidden city was really forbidden for the masses. Because it expressed a strong mood of rejection. BUT, as a contemporary work, the image becomes nothing but misleading, for that this "city" was already OPEN to any visitors. In journalistic respect, Phil, it would be better to see at least one more element in it which can act in contrast to this rejective mood, which could tell the TRUTH.

So, what would the absent element possibly be?
Phil Douglis18-Nov-2004 22:00
Thanks Wayne, for your comment and critique of this image. The beauty of expressive photography is that each photographer can bring his or her own vision to an image and compose it to emphasize whatever they are trying to express. Your suggested composition is neither right nor wrong, nor is it my own composition. If you read the explanation I wrote beneath this picture, you will see that my goal is to emphasize the nature of the moat. I wanted to make it look bigger than it really is. I wanted to stress the water as the subject of my picture. Everything else, Wayne, is context. Your own goal is to create an equal balance between sky and water, which was not my purpose at all. So you see -- we are shooting entirely different pictures of the same thing here. I am talking moat, and you are talking balance. Are you wrong and am I right? No -- we simply are not expressing the same idea. There is a great danger, Wayne, in trying to impose any set of compositional "rules" or ideas on all images -- we must allow each and every image to speak for itself in the most effective way it can. That is why I do not teach composition as a set of "rules." I offer an array of guidelines that my students might consider using to organize their images expressively -- depending upon what they are trying to say. I am trying to stress the idea of a moat here more than anything else, and that is why I composed this image as I have. I hope this helps, Wayne, and thanks as always, for your thoughts. They are helping me teach!
Guest 18-Nov-2004 05:10
Phil,

I like this image overall, especially the creative use of symmetry. Compositionally however, I would have put the horizon line a bit higher and tilted the camera up just a few degrees so that the body of water takes up less space. as it is now, and this is just one photographers opinion, the moat fills up too much of the picture space. the distance between the reflected tip of the temple and the cornerstone could be just a tad bit less. as a result, there would be an equal balance between sky and water, the cornerstone would have more prominence, and no space would be wasted.

cheers!
Phil Douglis09-Nov-2004 04:47
Yanan, I took this image with my wideangle lens right on the corner of the moat so I could create the illusion of perspective I wanted to create. This gallery you mention -- is it a gallery where you can view the moat and building. Or is it an art gallery that has an exhibit on the moat and the building? I want very much to go back to Beijing (in fact to all of China) and spend a lot more time photographing its impressive history, architecture, culture, and most of all, its people.
YNW09-Nov-2004 04:04
woooo!I love this one!There is a great gallery called "si he yuan" near the forbidden city, where you can see the moat and the building in the photo.
Phil Douglis09-Sep-2004 03:04
Thanks Vlado! You are quite the traveler yourself, and have made some fine images.
Phil
Vlada Marinkovic24-Aug-2004 12:17

Excellent idea Phill,
Great photo,
Best regards,
Vlado
Phil Douglis20-Jul-2004 16:41
Thanks, Marek, for your cogent and accurate analysis of this image. I particularly liked your point about using symmetry to multiply the visual strength of an otherwise typical structure. That's the story here. Moats and walls were once the essence of strength and authority. I doubled that authority here by capturing that reflection, centering it in the frame, and echoing it with the v-shaped wall anchoring the bottom of the photograph. You are right -- I rarely use symmetrical, centered subject placement because it is usually static, formal, and predictable. But in this case, the story I was telling about this structure required it. This example would also be a good fit for my gallery on composition -- the picture's meaning emerges largely because of how I organized these elements within the frame.
Guest 20-Jul-2004 10:15
This image is a great example of lateral thinking, as it imaginatively exploits symmetry. Firstly, the time of the day and atmospheric conditions have provided you with a perfect (horizontal) reflection of the building, resulting in a diamond shape which is stronger than the building shape on its own. Secondly, by using the wall corner view, you have emphasised this shape and reinforced the other (vertical) axis of the image. The image becomes arresting, reminding us of a caleidoscope view; it contains an implicit movement of its four parts. I think it is fascinating that only those of us who have peered into a caleidoscope as children would experience this kind of visual 'vertigo' triggered by its memory.

Another way to look at this is that you say that you have turned our attention to the moat, and you have, but only by virtue of emphasising the building it is serving to protect. By using symmetry in a very clever way, you have managed to literaly multiply the visual strength of an otherwise typical structure. Take away the reflection, shoot with the wall edge in horizontal, and the effect and message would be completely lost.

Opportunities for symmetrical images do not present themselves very often as they require a threshold level of 'perfection'. You have seized this one with gusto, turning it to the story's advantage in the process.
Phil Douglis17-Jul-2004 03:55
You are right, Mo. Wideangle distortion has worked to our benefit here, providing an incongruous scale juxtaposition that stresses the wall of the moat instead of the Forbidden City itself.
monique jansen14-Jul-2004 13:11
I like the fact that the corner juts out into the center and forefront of the picture, dwarfing the tower
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