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Canon DSLR Challenge | all galleries >> Challenge 116 - Logo and Trademarks (hosted by Lydia too) >> Eligible > Me & My Apple
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26-MAR-2008 kyagudin

Me & My Apple

Singapore

Episode III. Attacks Of The Clones.
Or
Apple Forever


other sizes: small medium original auto
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Guest 28-Mar-2008 21:27
Nice play and interaction of ideas here!
-Cat
Canon DSLR Challenge28-Mar-2008 12:46
Awww.. .THANK YOU for my orchid, Konstantin. It's beautiful and I appreciate your gift very much. It should also absolve you of any perceived guilt. *grin* ~Lydia

P.S. I'm "just" a mommy. I used to be a computer person before kids... majored in Computer Programming. Now I think my title is "Amateur Photographer". *smile*
Canon DSLR Challenge28-Mar-2008 12:23
Lydia, I’m deep impressed by your last message - an absolutely unexpected way out from a fully hopeless situation ! And what the elegant one! High style! My respect and applause! (Are you lawyer? Do you write criminal stories? Do you work in Statistical Department?).

Iron-Lady, you have great & merciful heart!

My I please ask you to take this:

http://www.pbase.com/kyagudin/image/94520791

PS. The last question: how you – women – always manage that we – men – have a strong feeling of guilt at the end of ANY conversation?
Konstantin
ctfchallenge27-Mar-2008 18:56
You have done what I asked in the original rules: "You can make your own reproduction of a company's logo" by having the bitten apple in the scene. If I add up your created logo (for all the times it appears in the image) plus the company's actual logo (for all the times it appears in the image), I'm sure it will be nearly 1/4 of the image. I have been, and will be, a tad bit lenient on this fraction, so I don't mind saying that this image qualifies on these merits.

Now, let us all rejoice and live happily ever. *grin* ~Lydia
Canon DSLR Challenge27-Mar-2008 18:54
Dear Lydia,
you posted your last comment at the time when I was typing - so a quick replay from my site.
Thank you very much for the hint with the apple and for your attempts to help me to "save" the picture which is, as you are sure, out of topic. I really appreciate this. From my site I am the opinion, may be I am wrong - english legal regulations & casuistic is not my area - that the picture is on topic and therefore does not need any changes to be done.

I think we should do a cut here. Please feel yourself free to do your host's duty. I'm fully accepting any your decision even if I don't agree on it.

Konstantin
Canon DSLR Challenge27-Mar-2008 16:49
Lydia,
sorry, but results of your reinforcing brought you to conclusion, which is not fully correct. Trademark is not a Name but (I should repeat here):

"A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol or design, or a combination of words, phrases, symbols or designs, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others" - this is an official definition of Trademark from "United State Patent and Trademark Office".

Design, Logo, Screen, Applications Doc, etc etc ... uniquely identify Apple computer and distinguish it from "those of other companies". And iMac - computer - is an officially registered trademark of Apple Company as well as f.e. "the contour bottle itself is a registered trademark of the Coca-Cola Company ... ".

Yes, your Rule definition "... logo OR trademark ..." allows broader scope that probably was your intention when you opened this challenge.

Yes, with this Rule you should accept ANY trademarks and indeed this challenge is very open. Probably you should have restricted your Rule definition to "Logo" only to get what as I can imagine you really wanted.

I am not sure that I can be more persuasive then "United State Patent and Trademark Office" and this is also not my intention. For me - the picture is fully on topic. iMac computer (as well as "Iconic" Coca Cola Bottle) is "more certainly the trademark". But probably we just see the things slightly, what unfortunately is no so seldom in this world.

I don't think that I can add something else to this discussion. On other site, I don't like to run in a loop and repeat the same stuff again and again. I think we should stop here.

This is your challenge and the final call is yours. If YOU think that the picture is not on topic you have right to move it to Pending.

Kind regards, Konstantin
ctfchallenge27-Mar-2008 16:48
I just figured out that you're getting the idea that products are trademarked by reading the conversation you referenced in the beginning (Nico's Coke bottle): seeing the Coke bottle as a package being a trademark. While in that case the packaging is an actual trademark, it's also true that "the contour bottle is one of the few packages to ever receive a trademark from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, helping to make Coca-Cola one of the most famous brands in the world today." (From the link Nico quotes in the conversation you mention)

I'll give you credit for the partially-eaten apple being a recreation of a valid logo since I said you could create one out of other items. So if the logo you've created and the actual logos add up to 1/4 of the image, then the image qualifies. ~Lydia
Canon DSLR Challenge27-Mar-2008 15:05
From that site, I have my opinion reinforced that only the NAMES of those products are trademarks (and they're followed by the TM sign). The actual product is, I assume, covered with a patent or similar and is not a trademark of the company. It is a product of the company.

The second link you give says this: "The Mac Trademark -
1. You may not use the Mac trademark standing alone except to denote or refer to the Apple Macintosh product line."

This would also indicate to me that products are different from trademarks.

I'm sorry to keep belaboring this. But, if I give you permission to use the monitor as a trademark, then that opens up the challenge to more ambiguity of what I thought would be a simple and clear rule to enforce.

So... please prove that the monitor itself is a trademark or reshoot and I'll let this stay. Otherwise, I think that I have no option but to send this to Pending, which I really hate to do... *heavy, heavy sigh*

BTW, a funny thing about that link you gave:

A quote

"Remember that trademarks are adjectives, and cannot be made plural or possessive.
For more information on how to use Apple’s trademarks..."

Does anyone else see how hilarious this is? *grin* ~Lydia
Canon DSLR Challenge27-Mar-2008 12:02
Thank you Naj - that is what I wanted to do from begin on but it was too late when I finished first iteration and I needed first browse in PS documentation to find how I can do this. I am not very happy with technical realization - did such things first time.
Basically - the idea is obvious - you immediately recognized it.
Konstantin
Canon DSLR Challenge27-Mar-2008 11:46
Konstantin, I think the repetion has worked really well. - Regards, Najinsky
Konstantin Yagudin27-Mar-2008 10:59
Lydia, appreciate your patiency :-)

I think you mix up two different things – Logos and Trademarks. Based on United States laws, rules and regulations (I really did research in Internet before posting my picture !) they are:

Trademark:
A word, phrase, symbol, or design, or combination thereof that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods or services of one party from those of others.

Logo:
A logotype, commonly known as a logo, is the graphic element of a trademark or brand, which is set in a special typeface/font, or arranged in a particular, but legible, way. The shape, color, typeface, etc. should be distinctly different from others in a similar market.

The design (as well as other elements - Logo included) of the monitor undoubtelly identifies it as an Apple iMac computer. An iMac (computer) is an officially registered Apple trademark. Please see official Apple Trademark List:

http://www.apple.com/legal/trademark/appletmlist.html

(You can also have a look here:
http://www.apple.com/legal/trademark/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html )

So, the iMac is an Apple Trademark independent from does it has a Logo on it or not.

The Apple Logo is also in use on my picture – together with other apples (Logos & edibles) it is a subject of Rule #4.

It's you Challenge and your word is the last one here, but I'm afraid that if a basketball game is an officialy registered trademark for Sport drink - you have to accept this as well.

Konstantin
Canon DSLR Challenge26-Mar-2008 20:38

LOL! While I do appreciate and admire your research, argument, and calculations, Konstantin, I feel that the entire monitor is the actual product represented by the logo, and the only logo or trademark is the "apple" on both/all monitors.
Your argument would make me have to accept any product with any sized logo on it, I fear. If you're wanting me to say that the edible apple is a logo for the computer, I'd have to disagree on that point, too. In your explanation, I'd have to accept some google eyes as filling the screen up for a very small Google logo, or a basketball game for Sport (tm) drink. Do you agree? Perhaps I'm not understanding your argument.
What says you next?? *grin*

I do think that if you hold an actual printout of the Apple logo itself instead of an edible apple and that logo and the others add up to 1/4, you'd have the requirement beat. *hint hint* I just don't think the apple is the Apple logo.

It does appear that you're meeting Rule #4 on your list with gusto. *smile* ~Lydia

PS Oh yeah... and I'm really glad to see your face. Makes me have a picture of to whom I'm 'speaking'. *grin*
Canon DSLR Challenge26-Mar-2008 08:04
Lydia, I was expecting your request for an explanation :-)

Basically, I came to the idea after having read the discussion here:http://www.pbase.com/cslr_challenge/image/94579093

1. Rule “show a logo or a trademark of a product in a creative and/or artistic way” - I did some research in Internet and found that “A trademark is a distinctive sign or indicator of some kind which is used by an individual, business organization or other legal entity to identify uniquely the source of its products and/or services to consumers, and to distinguish its products or services from those of other entities. A trademark is a type of intellectual property, and typically comprises a name, word, phrase, logo, symbol, design, image, or a combination of these elements.” (See here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark ).
I am the opinion that my computer in background, which can be undoubtly and uniquely identified as an iMac Apple computer, does suit to this definition, doesn’t it ?
2. Rule: ”Your image should have the logo or trademark as a central subject, not just vaguely visible, in the image”. I think you also agree that even being in background the Apple computer is one of the central objects of the composition.
3.Rule “It doesn't have to fill the image, but it does have to be prominent in the image (at least one fourth of the total image)”. After precise measuring (did it using differential calculation, had to remember what I studied in the University) – can also assure you that the area occupied by Apple monitor does suit to this rule as well.
4. One more Rule ... “You've gotta have fun! *grin*” – is self explained, isn’t it? 2x*grin*.

So – this is the story – I’m waiting trembling for your judgment, Lydia !

I have to add that posted picture is just first iteration and NOT the final version. As what I’m going to do is time consuming, I would like to proceed only after getting an allowance from our iron-lady-host !

Should I proceed, Lydia … ?

Trav, Naj – I’m afraid that even all together we have bad chances to “battle” Lydia. Anyway, thank you for your courageous support !

PS. To your question Lydia – this modest man with handsome face is me. Ok ok … I did some “make up” in Photoshop, but my relative still are able to recognize me … I hope …
Konstantin
Canon DSLR Challenge26-Mar-2008 00:37
I just tried a radical crop of this and placed it in pending...hopefully the two apples will be close to 25%....just thinkin`...love the picture...Traveller
Canon DSLR Challenge26-Mar-2008 00:29
I don't know, Naj....but I do like this image an awful lot...still using a paradox to meet the requirements of the Challenge...is smarter than I can take...my head just exploded...quick, somebody photograph it!!!!!!!!!!!

You know what they say, Pictures or it didn't happen.

Best Wishes, Traveller
Canon DSLR Challenge25-Mar-2008 23:18
I guess the fairy tails are true, where there's an Apple, there's a wicked Witch manipulating the events behind the scenes!! Anyway, I have an idea to help you out kyagudin. If you carry the theme forward and keep replacing the screen with the image, you could claim the image represents infinity, and as the Apple repetitions are infinite, they couldn't possibly be less than a 1/4 of a finite image. Think Glidya 2 will buy it? -Najinsky ;-)
Canon DSLR Challenge25-Mar-2008 22:18
Gee golly, Konstantin! What a good, fun, creative image! Is that your handsome face(s)?

I must say, though, that unless you can come up with an argument for me on how you've filled 1/4 of your image with a logo or trademark, that it does not meet the Challenge rule. *heavy sigh*

This hosting thing isn't all it's cracked up to be... I thought it would be such an easy rule to enforce... *sigh* ~Lydia