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Brian Redman Intl. Challenge 2005

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Kim Terry 07-Apr-2008 20:01
It's been nearly 2 years since this catastrophe, and I still cannot believe what I saw that day. We reviewed the video this past weekend, and it still terrifies me. My husband has driven in this group for several years, and when I read the early comments about egos and cheaters, I just have to guess you haven't meet Trent Terry. As I still often look for other videos of this without finding any, I'm going to post what we have. Trent was the last one through unscathed, the black #77 Jaguar E-type. And, yes, he does race to win. It's called "driving" not "racing" otherwise. It may take me a little time to get this up. I'm aiming for youtube.com. I'll post links asap.
Jim Shanel 04-Dec-2007 00:57
Does anyone have a video? I thought I saw an a couple of frames on the speed channel (as part of a promo).
Thanks
Jim
Mike Stranger 17-Mar-2007 04:09
Thanks 123 adware
Mike Stranger 15-Mar-2007 05:09
God site. Thanks!
lhof njtwir 30-Jan-2007 04:24
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David Snow 29-Nov-2005 21:35
Well Ray... What can I say..??? (LOL)

You knew better, Boy.. You may want to go back to Bonderant School again..

Your Brother-in-Law of 30 some years...

Dave
Todd 19-Nov-2005 18:49
I raced at the VSCDA fall event at RA, and I can speak regarding the Group 6 race ....the Start was nice and slow..... very orderly. Just the way it should be.

In my opinion, the BRIC incident was the "perfect storm" of which at least 3 things took place that contributed to the accident. 1)The Start was too fast. I came around corner 14 onto the front straight (going "pace lap" speed), and the front 7 rows were "on the gas" already. 2) Some cars were "out of line" (pun). 3) The Starter failed to give the Green Flag, probably due to his seeing the "out of line" cars.

If even one (1) of these 3 situations doesn't happen....maybe no accident....at least not "the big one".

I'm real happy nobody was seriously injured in it.
Guest 04-Nov-2005 17:32
Art Eastman has changed his tune a little bit in the latest issue of Vintage Motorsports. Now he lays some blame on the pole-sitters, saying they slowed down at the start, causing some check-ups. Art claims he reviewed a DVD with lots of in-car and exterior video. Where does one obtain one of these?
bossracer 20-Sep-2005 23:10
Well, I have stayed away for almost 6 weeks. It looks like we are no closer to solving the problem or preventing this from happening again. I just returned from a weekend at Texas World Speedway with CVAR. The only problem was big wallet sitting in Formula Ford with not much thinking. He clipped a formula Vee and went end over end with a roll for good measure. The "big cars" ran clean, and we talked specifically how to execute the start in the drivers meeting. No problems. 3 years ago we started a slow and painful process to bring our cars "in compliance" with the rules. The engines got smaller, more expensive and less reliable. But the lap times went down, and everyone seems to have a good safe time. Isn't that what Vintage racing is about? having a good time? Enjoying the cars? It is most definitely not about WINNING. If the blokes have to win, they should be running in a group that encourages winning. Coming in first place in a vintage race....who cares. Having a great time with good friends and good cars...now that is priceless.

dan H. VMC driver for 10 years.
Guest 20-Sep-2005 02:31
retired racer, he said it was his first at RA, since the BRIC incident, not his first anyplace since the BRIC incident.
guest 19-Sep-2005 23:11
It is time for people to speak their minds and let vscda know how upset some of us are. Things are not changing for the better. I wish that svra would get a chance to run the BRIC. It would be much more organized and might make the track more money also. vscda should stick to little tracks with a smaller total of cars they can handle. It seemed to be a much smaller total of cars this past weekend from last year. I think the word is spreading.
Vintage Driver 19-Sep-2005 19:33
OK, so let me be sure I have this correct - as long as we start at 50 MPH, then all is well. It does not matter that the pack has not been formed up (people still swerving back and forth thru turn 12 - or later so the pack can not be formed) and there are significant gaps in the field.

Yes, I was at Watkins Glen, as a SPECTATOR.

Let me also understand that it does not matter if it was a VDCSA or SCCA Chief Steward (never announced as which; if the Chief Steward does not know what is going on - who does!!!! And as far as everyone being a volunteer, it will certainly make me feel better the next time there is a crash like this knowing we do not have professionals running the race event, but instead volunteers . . . .
retired racer 19-Sep-2005 16:18
Vintage Racer, YOU confuse me, you say the VSCDA event this past weekend is your first since the BRIC BUT then you tell what the SVRA did about starts at the Glen a week ago...If this is your first event since the BRIC how do you know what happened at Watkins Glen?? I might also add the Watkins Glen event might of been a much more quiet weekend just as the VSCDA weekend was without some of the faster cars that are also the ones that cause some of the drama. One might think YOU just have an ax to grind with the VSCDA!!
Guest 19-Sep-2005 16:08
I MUST contradict you as the "chief steward" was an SCCA official and NOT a VSCDA official, I also believe the SCCA official said "we want a 50-60 mph start), as for guys being "strung out" many times it is their own choice as was the case at the BRIC specifically in the group 6 race, some come to race and some come to tour (and MANY are just "in" over their head). In this past VSCDA R/A event the group 6 field (except for one lone yellow Mustang with what looked like a tire problem) was formed up quite well.

PS: You might also remember that the VSCDA is a NON for profit "club" where members volunteer versus the SVRA which is a FOR profit business that pays employees to do a job. You might also remember MOST of the group 6 crashers anonymous club as BS Levy calls them are regulars on the SVRA circuit, some crashing over and over, again and again LONG before the SVRA slaps them on the wrist.
Vintage Driver 19-Sep-2005 14:39
I just returned from my first vintage race at Road America since the BRIC incident and I have some very serious concerns – nothing has changed.

It appears that VSCDA, the race organization that ran this weekends event, and also ran the BRIC event, is taking a “See no evil” – Hear no evil – Speak no evil” approach to the BRIC incident. During the mandatory driver’s meeting, when nothing was said about starting procedures, several drivers asked questions about the starting procedures and the Chief Steward could not articulate what the starting procedures would be and even contradicted himself on what the procedures would be for the weekend. While there were no serious incidents during the start of the races this weekend, the starts were just as sloppy and dangerous as they were at the BRIC. The fields were not well formed and there were large gaps as the cars approached the starters stand.

At the SVRA Watkins Glen event a few weeks ago, it was very obvious that SVRA had closely studied the BRIC incident and reviewed their procedures to ensure that an incident like the BRIC would be much less likely to happen. They also reviewed the SVRA starting procedures during the driver’s meeting, to make sure all drivers were on the same page.

I am extremely concerned that VSCDA does not have a professional staff necessary to ensure a safe racing event. I do not believe they have the expertise to properly review a racing incident and follow thru with the appropriate changes necessary to reduce the risk of injury to drivers and the race cars they drive.

P.S.

I have specifically not put my name on the message, as it is also very clear that the “powers to be” within VSCDA are not above retaliation when the do not hear what they want to hear . . .
past racer 03-Sep-2005 03:25
My experience would say that the second row had laid back a little and tried to get a run on the front row only to get a late flag for the start. Then checked up and started a chain reaction. I am not blaming the flag for this either. The starter does and always will start the race. It was just something unexpected for the racers that day.
bob 03-Sep-2005 03:13
So how do we see this video that is floating around the net?
Brian Morrison 03-Sep-2005 02:08
>>>>
Guest 03-Sep-2005 02:07
Past Racer... I agree with you for the most part. But as you said, the second row checked up and to continue on with the debate we have to ask why did the second row even have to check up? What was the reason for that? Anyway, that is all I wanted to say! See you at the races.
past racer 03-Sep-2005 00:41
Ive raced and been around racing my whole life. I know many of the drivers involved in this wreck and I have seen the video also. One of the other factors, in my opinion, include the second row checking up on their brakes expecting a green flag. Which caused the according effect. Ray being in line, or where he was out of line, would still of been in a collision. Either with the car in front of him or the one next. Either way the same outcome. If the field had not checked up Ray would of been black flagged for being out of line and his race over. Another factor is the late flag. Its something most drivers have never experienced at Road America. In my days the flag usually droped about 100 feet before the start finish line. I may be wrong but this race it was dropped what looked like 40 feet from the line. Like Young Morrison said, "people are entitled to their opinions", and those are mine. I feel like the guest earlier has attacked Ray who I somewhat know. Many of the other drivers that were in the wreck have been on this site and not blamed him outright. I also feel Burt Levys article was real close. Also, Maybe there should be a no passing rule till after corner 2.
Brian Morrison 02-Sep-2005 17:35
"Guest" Your post is pointless (to me at least)...unless you want to let us know who YOU are and allow us to qualify your statement. Yes, I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it but just please know that there are more factors that played a part of it and unless you REALLY are closely involved it just seems like more poison. Which you are directly placing in the lap of one person, I think unfairly. You obviously know someone involved (or were involved yourself) otherwise you most likely would not have seen the video...Share with us your connection!

Yes, "that dude" (are we 15) was out in the middle of the track, but if other things had happend the way they have always happened in the past it would have been a non issue..other than it is still vintage and that move was a little too much.
As for the article I think that it was pretty on target!
Guest 02-Sep-2005 13:13
Out of curiosity what exactly are the "other contributing factors" that caused that dude Ray in the yellow Camaro to move to the center of the race track as the pace car pulled off (and stay there all the way up the hill to the start finish line)?? And to the poster that said the BS Levy story is TRUTH...Levy saying he "took a little peek" is like saying you made your girlfriend a "little pregnant" as that "peek" started as the pace car moved off the track and lasted all the way to the flag stand......The Levy story is pure public relations...
Brian Morrison #76 01-Sep-2005 16:38
I have not commented about this situation at all and will not likely after this. But!!! There have been a lot "outsiders" (that do not have the guts to post their names)reading this website and thinking that they "know" what happened or what caused it, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there are many other factors than just one driver getting anxious at the start. Although it did not help. If you want to get 'the truth' and I mean a well written researched article about the accident, read Burt Levy's article in Classic Motorsprts. It will give you a fairly good idea of what happened! He actually spoke to some of the drivers and saw the footage, he did not give just one side of the situation.

I feel that there are some changes that should be made to the group and know that they will be addressed, I just hope that it is not overboard. I hope to help make Group 6 an even more fun and safe group to run in, and of course I will be back. Just as soon as I can fix my car.

ps. I can tell you that some of the comments directly below are not shared by some (many) of the drivers involved, including myself. I would have no issue racing side by side with 'that driver' any weekend. That is if I could catch him!!!

Mark Donohue! 01-Sep-2005 03:42
If there is video out there, let's see a link!!! This is some guy's personal photo gallery....what the hell does someone's name on a post have to do with it?

signed,

MARK DONOHUE
Matt Mulacek 01-Sep-2005 01:03
For the last Guest, who is too much of a coward to leave their name, you're very quick to point the finger. You should look at the video a little closer. There are a number of problems that caused this accident. If you read through this forum you will see.
Guest 31-Aug-2005 19:33
Guest 23-Aug-2005 23:45
The speculation can come to an end, as the in-car footage floating around quite-so-clearly identifies the culprit that started this sickening chain of events! The worst part...the over-aggressive bastard that stepped out of line, put his boot in-it BEFORE the pace car even pulled off the track - GOT AWAY WITH BARELY A SCRATCH! If the dude in the yellow Camaro (Ray) has not been castrated by his fellow competitors yet, he should, as well as getting his license yanked for the rest of his life! This was NOT a racing incident, as the race had not even started!
Dick Carlson28-Aug-2005 17:20
For ME, who couldn't post his real name or email. At least Art Eastman has the professionalism to write under his own name. I've known Art a long time, and I'm sure he thoroughly researched his article. You, however - why should anyone listen to you.

Dick Carlson
Guest 28-Aug-2005 01:46
Maybe I didn't read it close enough....where lies the problem?
me 27-Aug-2005 06:08
any one read the vintage motorsport page? Pretty sad reporting. Usually people research before they write. I cant stand half ass work..
Guest 24-Aug-2005 02:34
OH, please post a link or something!!!!
Guest 16-Aug-2005 20:15
Oh my!!!!! Now, THAT is funny!!!!!!

Good work!
Tom Hazen 16-Aug-2005 03:26
You know you have arrived when...

http://p075.ezboard.com/fpockitfrm2.showMessage?topicID=12212.topic

...your crash gets lampooned my slot car guys. And it's realistic!
Brad 16-Aug-2005 02:55
Like you say touring rules do get broken I am one who has, I remember many off's cars have had, I remember many cars scattering engines, and rememer the Taurus SHO crashing at the kink. It is hard to "police" speeds with 4 or 5 "pace" cars on a 4 mile track. A few years ago I was in a Ferrari GTO driven by Phil Hill, he told me and I believe we went close to 150 mph during the 50 mph touring. If you think passing in the corners and speeding doesn't happen you have not been on track in touring in the past few years.
Guest 15-Aug-2005 13:33
Actually, on the topic of touring, while I have difficulty envisioning a crash this outrageous during touring (of course, I'd have had trouble envisioning this large of a crash in a race also, had I not actually seen it), the fact of the mater is, touring does get a bit crazy from time to time. Over the years we've had cars that have crashed so hard (again, during touring) that they've had to be flat bedded off the track. I can recall a Ferrari and a Taurus (two separate incidents on different days) both losing control exiting the Carousel and going into the wall. Although there is supposed to be a speed limit, and there is to be no passing in the corners, rules get broken, and bad things happen.
Brad 13-Aug-2005 01:46
Well I have driven last year and for the last 8 years in my Miata, and every year do go over 50, and have gone over 100 into turn 5 every year, you only need to watch the starter bridge as they sometimes watch speeds there. I only stop on track the frist lap, and get about 5 to 6 laps in. you are correct about passing in corners though I don't do that, but do pass into the corner that is ok. Oh ya you are only going 50 doesn't work, that is the speed these guys where supposed to be going.
Guest 12-Aug-2005 02:33
Re: Big brakes and big motors....

You're right about that too!!! I agree with you about MY posts and where I said "usually". I hope you didn't think insinuate that it happens in "correct" vintage car races as often as it does at the BRIC. This isn't the first time that there was a "large" incident there, or with Group 6. And "bending" the rules vs "an extra 30-80 cubes" is like driving 90 mph in a 55 zone while everyone else is doing 60 mph. "But officer, everyone else is speeding!"

Not being argumentive with you, I may be tweaking this "comment forum" into a "What is vintage racing and what is not" agenda. Thanks for posting and commenting.
guest 12-Aug-2005 02:00
Brad, are you mentally challenged. Touring is 50 mph with no passing. Usually there are so many people out there that your lucky if you see 50 in the straight. Last year I paid for touring and drove four laps in the hour and had to stop many times due to traffic and control of the pace cars. VERY SAFE.
Guest 11-Aug-2005 20:12
re: Big Motors/Big Brakes
If you are going to use the word "USUALLY", how about this. "USUALLY" this does not happen. "USUALLY" the start goes off without a hitch. "USUALLY" wrecks are the result of a flat or blown motor. "USUALLY" their are people that bend the rules. "USUALLY" some cars are prepared better than others. "USUALLY birds fly and fish swim. But always, racers and/or race fans whine!
Brad 10-Aug-2005 00:29
What is going to be scary is when something like this happens during touring, then there will be more people hurt or god forbid killed. When you have old racecars some open wheel cars and new street cars hitting each other it will be scarry. And just at least the racers here know about flags, many of the people in touring do not. Hey I have been on track at the BRIC during touring while some jacka** was talking on his cell phone. If you think it won't or can't happen I bet you thought the same about this.
Guest 10-Aug-2005 00:08
Well, since its just comments on pictures and not necessarily a "forum"....here's another "take" on the "big motors/big brakes". Usually CHEATER cars are driven by guys that don't have the talent/ability to run up front with a LEGAL car!! Thus, they find ways to get up front without needing to be a better driver. Having 30-80 more horsepower at a place like RA makes a HUGE difference! My bet is that those "big brakes" weren't up to temp, all of the "backmarkers" jumped on them, locked them up, and SLAMMED into the pile ahead of them... Basically, in my opinion, these parts contributed to the wreck because the drivers didn't have the VINTAGE ATTITUDE. If they did, they'd have vintage brakes, and vintage motors. And if the same folks say, "Well a roller-cammed 347 is more reliable" they're just kidding themselves, and trying to convince others that its cheaper. Its not. HP costs money, and when it breaks, its costs even more to fix. Solid lifters and OEM cids is vintage racing. Its easy to blame the starter, but everyone should know that the STARTER controls the race, not the cars, not the guy with the most horsepower, not the thickest wallet, not the rarest car, etc. No racing till you see the green flag!
Guest 09-Aug-2005 17:02
Geez! Can any body tell me what big motors, big brakes or big wallets had to do with this very unfortunate incident. One thing about racers, thay always whine about what the other guy has or supposedly has. This was not an inverted field start. The "BIG MOTORS" are up front and pulling away (usually). The only way you are going to run over the guy in front of you is if he slows or you jump the start. Should that happen those "BIG BRAKES" will come in pretty handy! As for the "BIG WALLETS", they'll be needing those too! Where ever the blame lands, with the starter or with the front rows checking-up, this had absolutly nothing to do with how these cars are prepared. IT WAS HOW THE START WENT DOWN! There are many options to control starts. A limp green followed by a yellow or no passing before the flagstand or whatever. Some work, some don't.
Todd 09-Aug-2005 07:20
Very good opinions and testimonies here. The pictures are shocking and saddening, and I thank the Lord everyone made it out all right, too. I volunteered as a corner worker at Blackhawk twice, and my hats are off to RA's race staff. I wouldn't have known what to do first.
What IS a good chatroom to complain about a thing or two in Vintage Racing? For years I've wondered what the heck kind of spec's some cars are prepared to, and how they get to race. To the fellow who mentioned the red XK120: Right on! After looking that car over I thought maybe it was a leftover from the SCCA June Sprints a month earlier! I mean, the car was built in the early '50s, for cryin' out loud. There are PLENTY of other cars out there, too that make me raise one eyebrow.

John 09-Aug-2005 01:15
Hi, I'm an Australian racer - can I ask why you guys stick with rolling starts? Most of the rest of the world have stationary starts, and this rarely happens.....
Guest 08-Aug-2005 23:20
Graphite body? Does that mean you can write with it?
Guest 08-Aug-2005 20:14
Re: the "tube frame and graphite body in picture 4" comment....
it's a Corvette - it's fiberglass. And the tube you're seeing is
part of the roll cage.
Guest 07-Aug-2005 23:34
Uh, Dennis, apparently you weren't aware, but there was an almost identical accident the week before during the SCCA sprints. Not to mention the fact that tons of cars get torn up during SCCA races. Just watch the Nationals on TV. I'm not in SCCA and I drive vintage specifically because I think (my) vintage organization does a much better job of keeping me and my vehicle safe.
Guest 07-Aug-2005 23:14
Has anybody noticed the tube frame and graphite body in photo number 4?
Guest 07-Aug-2005 22:00
Lolas did a pretty good job of it in 1966....
Zippity 05-Aug-2005 21:56
How often did you ever see any other make of car in front of the McLaren's?? :)

Love your photos. Can I print some off to hang on the wall of my local slot car track?
Guest 04-Aug-2005 22:14
There's now a DVD floating around the Chicagoland area with all the in-car footage assembled with driver names, grid position and so on to watch that race unfold before your eyes that afternoon... good viewing and explains a LOT! Very sad to see all that vintage sheet metal tangled up. Thank God nobody was seriously hurt and no fires.
guest 04-Aug-2005 06:17
I am going to paraphrase a comment from a famous racer in 1982: 'It was all that damned Coogan's fault'....... (A.J., Indy 500)
Guest 02-Aug-2005 13:21
Richard Yenko, there are no "poor guys" in vintage racing. If you can afford to go racing at all in any form, you are not poor.
Guest 02-Aug-2005 03:47
Guys, it is not really Braddock, it is some kid posting using a name in order to embarrass someone. Pay no attention to him and he will go away, or to bed, or something.
Guest 02-Aug-2005 01:48
Well said, Sir. SCCA is infamous for being 'rules nazis' as well as having a few people that are TOO aggressive. Blaming the track, the officials, or a lack of lights for some OVERLY AGGRESSIVE drivers (not necessarily ALL of them...) is a poor excuse for crashing vintage cars. The whole point of vintage racing is to preserve historic/vintage racecars in their natural element.. the racetrack. I guess a few people still believe in WRECKING vintage cars too, just so they can get to the front and get the $5 plastic trophy.
Dennis 02-Aug-2005 00:34
After wading thru all the comments and finger pointing I'm frankly amazed. I would like to state for the record that I am a long time SCCA member, have attended R/A events for over 20 years and really have to agree completely with Mike Engleke's comments and evaluation of the events.
For those of you who disagree with the success that SCCA has had in running events at this track without incidents such as this one, maybe there's a reason for it. Perhaps their driver education requirements and enforcement of penaltys for stupid or overly aggressive driving actions make some sense in preventing situations like this.
Rule #1, like it or not, is if you don't see a GREEN flag, you're not racing. If you have to step on the brakes because you didn't see a green then it sounds like you were already racing before the green....and apparently several rows back that's exactly what was going on because they were trying to keep up with the front rows.
Stop blaming it on a track that has run thousands of succesful races over that past 50 years, the very well qualified officials like Mike. People were racing long before the green fell, and that's what started the whole mess. Tell me I'm wrong that if everyone waited until they actually SAW a green flag to put their foot into it there would have been an orderly start and not the carnage that resulted.
The good news is nobody lost their life or was seriously hurt. The really bad news is that a lot of very expensive and rare race cars were mangled, some possibly beyond repair, and that a lot of people got to see racing at its worst. I don't know if there were fist fights or not, but if so that's even more outrageous. Why even race cars? Heck, everyone just meet on the front straight and bring your boxing gloves.
Its incidents like this that make me appreciate SCCA and their approach to driver education, safety, and race orginization. I don't always agree with the way SCCA does everything but I'm glad, after seeing this incident, that they run races the way they do.
GM 01-Aug-2005 17:15
My lord, that has to be the most immature thing I've ever heard (read). What are you, 8? I think it's time for you to get back to whatever Play Station driving game that you're the self-proclaimed "King of the World" of and leave these type of discussions to the big people. I've tried to be respectful with my posts but in my estimation, and apparently others, that one isn't worthy of such respect. I'm with you Jim, as the "shark jump" killed Happy Days, so has Braddock killed this thread. Or as Popeye would say, "I've had alls I can standsk, I can't standsk no more, eck eck eck eck eck!"
E Wood 01-Aug-2005 00:01
Toly, I don't know of any video of the incident on the net. By the way, I used to watch you run the Morgan at Hallett in the 70's. Dad had a GP Alfa.
Christopher M. 31-Jul-2005 19:39
Jim, I agree with you. This has become rediculous...when idiots like d.w. braddock start posting stupid comments like that. This forum has lost its focus and purpose. Goodbye.
toly arutunoff 30-Jul-2005 21:25
didn't know about the big wreck until i read the mog +4 club newsletter--is it available as a movie somewhere?
Guest 30-Jul-2005 11:44
You would need to break up a few more Russian Submarines to supply two same equipped cars.
Only way to get that much titanium at one time.
Jim Fay 30-Jul-2005 02:57
I believe this forum has jumped the shark. Good by.
d w braddock 30-Jul-2005 02:33
here's the challenge.............any of you guys....and i include the 50 yr old former drivers, the semi-pros, the fatass republicans, and the mouth off drunks in the stands...........bring out your wallets and put up or shut up..........supply 2 same equiped cars and i will beat you on any road track in america............period..........

i am not a pro........never have been a pro........i will beat you............
Chris 29-Jul-2005 19:07
It's great that everyone is bashing us vintage races. I'm 22 years old and I run SCCA-Pro and SVRA. I can tell you all that the guys that run "vintage" are every bit as good, and in some cases better than A LOT of us "PRO" guys. I'll run with vintage any day over pro.
1. Most all respect their cars more.
2. Most all respect their fellow drivers more.
3. Most of them are all ex-pro's or have been driving for 20+ years anyway.
Those of you who think vintage is for inexperienced old fat rich guys who dont have any experience, dont know what you're talking about. If there wern't such ranks of "AMATURE" racing which we all do...there wouldnt be any pro's out there. Those of you who make such rediculous and spiteful comments calling them "idiots" and the such....I laugh in all of your faces.
GM 29-Jul-2005 16:26
I couldn't agree with you more in regard to people taking pot-shots at others while standing behind the cloak of anonymity. I find it hard enough to respect views from anybody that stoops to name-calling, but if you can't stand behind the garbage you're spewing by identifying yourself I'd rather you just SHUT THE H*** UP!!

Bob B, I was driving in the Group 7 Can-Am qualifying session when I became aquainted with the wall.

Greg M
Tom Hazen 29-Jul-2005 15:24
Apparently red-yellow-green lights have been in the plans at Elkhart for quite some time. This articlehttp://www.cnmidwest.com/successstories/roadamerica.html dated 2001 is a marketing piece from ComNet Midwest, and contains a technical description of the fiber optic network they installed for the track at that time. It includes the following statement: "An added feature of the Viper II system in the future will allow race control to manipulate lights on the track, alerting drivers of existing track conditions while the race is underway. These lights, which will be operated from race control, function much like a standard traffic light with red, yellow, and green lights indicating different track conditions." George Bruggenthies is also quoted in the article, saying "We wanted to make a commitment to our future. Rather than spend our resources to maintain an out-of-date system, we wanted to build a highly functional and scalable network, and that was the plan that ComNet put before us." Perhaps now he will make good on that commitment and install these much-needed lights. Respectfully, Tom Hazen.
Richard Yenko 29-Jul-2005 15:13
It is too bad that so many of you folks have to hide behind the GUEST label to make a posting. There were "rich guys" and "poor guys" in that field. However, they virtually all had many racing laps under their belts and most of those at RA. If they want to risk their cars that is their business, not yours. Quit complaining about it if you don't do it.

Richard Yenko
Guest 29-Jul-2005 15:12
Yeah, but it takes an even bigger idiot to NOT qualify up front, especially with 540 CID (or more!) especially at a track like Road America, where "horsepower rules". You don't have to have the utmost finesse and technique like a Donohue or someone.... Guys that "must be up front" in a VINTAGE car are guys that CAN'T run up front in SCCA, ALMS, etc.
guest 29-Jul-2005 13:36
Nice, is that the kind of elitism that makes the vintage group such an attraction?
guest 29-Jul-2005 10:12
There are some real idiots in here. First of all no one with out experience is going to qualify up front in a 50 car field. Most of these guys have been racing for 20 plus years. It sounds like it is you with out the experience to pussy foot around and let the front five rows go. And second, anything can be fixed for the right amount of money. That cobra will more then likelt be better then new when it comes back. And I bet it will be safer also. Idiots. Go to an AOL chat room if you have nothing smart to share.
chris gardner 29-Jul-2005 09:02
When you combine old guys rich guys, lack of experiance, expensive cars and 350 plus horsepower you are asking for trouble. I gave up racing with aggression, and now let the first 5 idiots go first. I remember the look on many of an accident victims face and it is always the look of inexperiance. Although I agree, it is hard to play it safe when gasoline, horsepower and age are part of the formula.
Guest 29-Jul-2005 01:15
That's a pretty valid point on the "that's racing" comment. On that note, I hope anybody that is shopping for a Cobra (now or in the future) will ALWAYS know that whatever CSX-XXXX chassis that was WRECKED was BENT BADLY. Lets just hope that its not "restored" like so many other "historic" cars. People need to face reality and that basically REBODYING a car does not constitute a REBUILD. Just because its has an original Shelby radiator cap doesn't mean you "saved" a car....
Guest 29-Jul-2005 00:11
Hey Guys, This Is Just A Part Of Racing! I Think Racing Should Be Left To Professionals, Not To Just Anybody With Enough Money To "BUY" Their Way Into An Event. It Appears To Me That Some Of These Guys Should Have Stayed At Home Or Watched From The Stands Instead Of Bringing Their "Mid-Life" Crises Cars To ANY Event. I Hope Everybody That Was Involved In The Accident Recovers Fully. As Far As The Crunched Classic Metal Goes, BIG DEAL, That's Racing! If You Can't Stand The Heat...
Bill 28-Jul-2005 21:03
Guest, those AC cobra's single over head roll bars sure seem to be more than enough to protect the driver if a car were to land full on top of it or incase it rolled over.

GM, your a class act and I repect your request to stop asking for video but just so you know, it was not out of morbid curiosity that I requested it. Take care.
Bob B. 28-Jul-2005 20:33
GM, you weren't by chance driving a Lotus 23B in that accident, were you?
Zeero 28-Jul-2005 03:39
Interesting remarks.

I raced SCCA back in the 1960s, then went Late Model stockcar racing and motorcycle racing (in other words, racing is not a foreign concept to me). This tremendous wreck comes under the heading of "fortunes of racing." As gentlemanly as we may wish to make it, racing remains a high-risk venture. And that's why we love it.

If I were driving a million-dollar Cobra, a birdcage Maseratti, or even a $100,000 Corvette, I would think twice about racing it where other drivers actually wanted to WIN at any cost. But racing hormones being what they are, who can say they wouldn't nail the accelerator for a flying start with 600hp under their toe?

I weep for the carnage in automotive metal. But we don't need to crucify anyone.
GM 27-Jul-2005 22:30
Dan, I can appreciate where you're coming from, at least to a certain degree. Firstly, I should know not to make such blanket statements. Obviously there are right reasons and wrong reasons for anyone wanting to view such a video. I was addressing those that may not have such honorable reasons for wanting to witness this horable event. As I stated, I have been involved in a pretty serious accident myself a few years ago, which involved extracation using the Jaws of Life, and a Flight for Life helicopter ride to Neenah Memorial Hospital. I would be HIGHLY disturbed if a video of my accident had surfaced and hit the WWW. That, is where I'm coming from!
Jeff Johnk 27-Jul-2005 22:23
I was at the BRIC, raced the BRIC, and saw the terrible pile up(my heart truely breaks for those caught up in it). On the drive home my wife and I discussed how long it would take every malcontent with a bone to pick about ANYTHING in vintage racing to find their soap box to preach from.... faster than the time it took for the accident to happen I see! While some of what I have read is offered by truly level headed folks and some of it most caring(many thanks to you folks), much of it is just garbage and I had refused to be apart of this until SVRA was pulled into it. How on GOD's green earth can SVRA be held up for review for anything related to this is beyond me. They did not sanction this event or have anything to do with it. The only thing I can think is that it IS because SVRA has some of the most well defined rules and regs that they now seemed to be on the examining table. God help us if a club as well run as SVRA by some of the finest folks in vintage racing now finds itself in a position to respond to something they didn't even sanction. How sorry we are if we force stand up folks like Jack Woehrle to take time they do not have to respond to such noise. Lets get something clear, it was not rules, regs, modifications, the flagger, VSCDA, SVRA, Road America or any other dumb thing that folks had dreamed up that triggered this accident... Hey the flagger was (at least in gruop Two)holding the green very late... as late as I can ever recall in ten years of racing RA and I DID NOT LIKE IT !!!! But because I did not like it is beside the point, it is my responsiblity as a driver to take the ever changing varibles that are thrown at me and make the best of them. Modifications had nothing to do with this. I can tell you that in my race later that afternoon and coming up to the green, at that moment, the thought occured to me that if something happened up front the exact same thing would play out with cars of 1/2 the HP and many on drum brakes. So what is it we want to have in vintage racing, a parade or a race? Racing is dangerous, even vintage racing and every driver must sign such a statment to such on entering any race. Understanding and accepting this, my prayer each and every time I take the track is for the saftey of those around me and for clarity of mind and judgement. Instead of pointing fingers lets discuss what did work, all the vintage mandated saftey gear for one thing. I still can not believe the injuries were so few and minor compared to the energy expended and NO FIRE! How about RA saftey crews and corner workers!?!?! Absolutley the best of the best and this was their finest hour!!! Enough good can not be said about these men and women, they always have and always will have my deepest admiration. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.
Ok folks, lets stop all the Monday morning quarterbacking and let some excellent people WHO ARE IN CHARGE AND NEVER WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN do their work in reviewing what happen and what if anything needs to change.
A speedy recovery to all involved. Respectfully, Jeff Johnk
Dan 27-Jul-2005 21:57
I am unable to understand the logic that would conclude that making a video available of this incident would somehow lack class, but making photos available of the same incident does not lack class.

If you wish not to view a video, no one would force you to do so, but for the rest of us that did not witness the incident first hand, a video would help us to sort through all of the inconsistencies that have been posted here.

If no one who possesses a video wishes to make it available, that is understandable and a right that must be respected. But to say that those of us who wish to see a video lack class is unfair. If all of the posts from those who where involved first hand had described the circumstances leading up to and during the incident were consistent, I would have little interest in seeing a video, but clearly there is little consensus on exactly what did happen. Surely there is no objection to allowing us to draw our own conclusions?

To GM who said "(a video) only serves to placate others curiosity". Aren't we all a little curious as to what exactly did happen? Is that a fault?

To Chris who said "Nobody should be gawking over someone's misfortuines and losses." Maybe so, but to assume that all of us have that intention is unfair. Some of us may actually want to understand this better.

I am very sympathetic to the losses of all those involved; the owners/drivers of Group 6, the BRIC, and RA, all of whom suffered from this, and I sincerely hope that all will recover fully.

In an effort to be constructive, I agree with the suggestion that in future Group 6 races at the BRIC that no passing should be allowed until after turn 1/2/3, take your pick. It is the only solution mentioned so far that I believe is workable, since it is enforceable because it is clearly evident when the rule is violated, it doesn't require RA to incur any expense, nor does it put the entire responsibility on RA to fix this, and it doesn't rely on drivers having to see through the red mist to do the right thing and it leaves no room for interpretation of best intentions.

Dan - avid fan of motor racing, and RA spectator since 1979
Jim Fay #55 Group 6 27-Jul-2005 21:38
Human nature being what it is, some drivers and builders will push the rules and their driving styles as far as they are allowed by the powers to be. What if a sanctioning body like VSCDA where to start a 3 year program to bring group 6 back to it’s rules base. Year one, 2006: strictly enforce the motor and transmission rules and driving behavior. Year two: bring the tires and body mods into compliance. Year three: enforce the suspension and brake rules. After three years, make group 6 VSCDA cars legal to run in SVRA and most other sanctioning bodies around the country. The cars that wish to stay illegal can have the option to run in group one.

Having said that keep in mind VSCDA allows you to run a big motor. When you declare it you are put in a designated group 6 class. Also keep in mind that flexible brake and motor rules allow alot of group 6 cars to run 2:35 to 2:45 times at Road America at an affordable cost. SVRA has its place and maybe VSCDA serves another purpose and a way for more drivers to participate. In the big picture shouldn't it be about a safe and enjoyable event?
Guest 27-Jul-2005 19:51
The man with his back to you in the picture of Cobra is the crew chief. If he is not objecting to the process, I guess none of us need to worry about it.
Guest 27-Jul-2005 19:26
NO
Guest 27-Jul-2005 18:59
Anyone care to comment of the removal of the Cobra?
http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=83&pos=67
guest 27-Jul-2005 17:25
I believe that most of us agree that the start of the Group 6 race was botched due to several contributing factors, but was primarily due to one underlying cause - the start went from being a rolling start to a flying start.

In a rolling start, the starter has the ultimate authority to show the green flag at the start/finish line or make the field take another lap. (If you intend to show the green flag regardless of the field's disposition after the pace car has pulled off, you don't need a starter. Just an on/off switch for the green light!) BTW, I haven't seen a "late" green flag in 25+ years of SCCA racing, but it may have happened somewhere. (A late green would occur anytime that the front row has passed the start/finish before the green flag is shown to the rest of the field.) An SCCA starter (or a designated representative of the Chief Steward) always briefs just the front row drivers as to how the start will proceed, max speed approaching the line, etc. Everyone else behind the front row is expected to maintain position until they see the green flag. Typcially, the front row slows to a given speed as the pace car leaves the course to allow the field to close and re-form prior to the start/finish line. The intent is that no one starts racing until the green flag is shown.

In a flying start, some, if not all, drivers are accelerating towards the start/finish line at racing speeds prior to the display of the green flag. Given the differences between cars and driver reaction times, this is inherently dangerous as drivers try to out drag the cars ahead, behinds, and next to them to the start/finish line. Given the limited overview of the field's dispostion at the crest of the hill by the start/finish line, this type of start is very dangerous at RA.

Not to say that the SCCA has all the answers, but I suspect that standardizing the starting procedures for rolling starts and punishing drivers that attempt flying starts would go a long way in avoiding this type of carnage in the future. just my opinion of course. (YMMV!)

- Gregory W. Smith, ODR-SCCA RE
Guest 27-Jul-2005 14:03
The best racing I ever saw at RA was about three years ago, when they had a race for the local stock cars, and trucks. Forget the trucks, their areo package was bad compared to the cars and they were out of contention. The cars were not exactly valuable, but a lot of effort went into the engines. You never knew what was going to happen. Almost none of the cars stayed on the track at turn 5. The front brake discs were very obviously red hot, even in daylight. The drivers seemed to be very young. No matter how screwed up the braking, the turn in, the apex, or the track out, or whether they were on the gravel or the grass, they had only one thing in mind, get up that hill and under that bridge as fast as they could. Trading paint? Bring it on. Tell me when those guys are going to be there and I will make the trip.

If cars from Tarzana can get to where they are as exciting as the high school kids, that would be a good thing.
Guest 27-Jul-2005 01:41
If SVRA has a P&G meter, perhaps they should use it more often. Once a year hardly covers it....as long as its "racing", people will "cheat" (or, "circumvent the rules") You pick...

CVAR, who is a member of the VMC (Vintage Motorsport Council) pays for an unbiased inspector to do "surprise" CID/camshaft checks at their events.
guest 26-Jul-2005 23:15
Why not just install a set of lights (green and red) about two hundred yards past the start/finish line and let race control start each race? The official starting line could be located near the lights and the finish line could remain where it is. This was not the first accident to occur at the start/finish line at RA. I just happend to be standing by the fence on the North side of the VIP tower and watched the accident unfold before my eyes. It was sad!
Jack Woehrle 26-Jul-2005 22:52
I had no intention of adding to this discussion until now. However, it appears that SVRA is again being referenced incorrectly. The following quote “After reading the SVRA rules, it becomes clear that this is Real Racing. Weight is set, but engine is free” is inaccurate

Are there people who think the BRIC was an SVRA event?

Certainly this is Real Racing as are SVRA and most other Vintage races. That was not always the case and isn’t everywhere now, but here we are in 2005 and that’s the way it is. There is no value in rehashing the “state of vintage racing”.

The facts concerning the wreck have been revealed and discussed to the point where very little new information will surface. Dick Mooney has summarized everything accurately and made some well conceived conclusions. It only remains to see what the organizers will to at future events.

The other subject that has come out of this discussion is that of car preparation and what the various Vintage organizations require or permit.

SVRA is well known for publishing clear rules sheets for each make and model and enforcing the key specifications including displacement and weight on a continuing basis. You can find them at www.svra.com or I will send them to you.

I don’t know of any other Vintage organization that uses scales at every event or even has a P&G meter, let alone knows what it is for. To say “engine is free” was read in the SVRA rules is absurd.

Even the VSCDA and the BRIC rules state “Engine must be of manufacturer, type and displacement as close as possible to the original engine type and specifications”.

I can find nowhere in writing that the specifications seen on these cars is permitted by anyone. It is strictly a matter of enforcing the written regulations and SVRA does that better than anyone. Please don’t misquote us.

Jack Woehrle
jwoesvra@aol.com
Guest 26-Jul-2005 20:34
Its not so much that the Mustang owner has someone's ear, it's my fear that I am going to watch the roof on my Camaro get crumpled into a mess by a nut with a crane some time. That "as seen on TV" method of moving damaged race cars is unacceptable in all but the most urgent circumstances (like someone under the car).
Dick Mooney 26-Jul-2005 20:20
Dick Mooney P9
I was in the fifth row directly behind Jerry Gollnick (black Corvette rdstr) when the accident occurred. Up to that point I thought the start was fairly normal. I had shifted into 3rd going up the hill. I could not see the flagstand yet because I had not crested the hill and because it was blocked by the cars in front of me. Also, I could not see what the front rows were doing -- all this is fairly normal -- the drivers, from probably the third row back, have to drive in accordance with the cars immediately around them not in accordance with the Flagger or the front rows. Someone can always miss a shift(very common) or have some unexpected mechanical failure to change the situation. The late flag in this case, the fact that no one except the front 1 or 2 rows knew we going to have a slow start, the spread out field racing to catch up, Ray Mulacek moving to the middle all compounded the problem that started when the front rows checked up forcing Ray to move over contacting Jerry and turning him into the wall. In reality, it was a true accident-- a series of seemingly unrelated events culminating in the worst possible way causing the final result -- a big multi car crash. Over the next 8 seconds I hit or was hit by 6 or 7 cars. Fortunately I did not even get a bruise or even a stiff neck which I have to credit to excellent safety equipment and a HANS device. I think you would also have to say that car safety preparation was excellent and the safety/emergency crews did a fabulous job.

What we need to do now is basically unravel this incident from the inside out and have the respective parties and organizations make the changes necessary to minimize the chance for a repeat. I would like to see the following:
1. Some basic written rules on rolling starts. Something like: stay in line, maintain your interval,and don't start until the flag drops. If you cannot see the flag you have to drive according to the cars around you. The passing driver is still responsible for making a safe pass.
2. Any variation to (1) must be communicated to all drivers -- no exceptions.
3. Hesitation starts, hanging back to open a gap, moving to the middle should result in a black flag and maybe out for the weekend or more.
4. The field should be caught up with the pace car -- There are plenty of communications in place now at every track to insure this. The corner workers can see the condition of the field and report it.
5. VSCDA should adopt and enforce more stringent car preparation rules. This event is becoming the "formula libre" event --especially in group 6. This fact, along with the mental attitude that accompanies it, creates an even more dangerous situation. Read Jack Woerles and Jerry Gollnicks comments. This is not enhancing the reputation of this event. My feeling is that adopting more specific rules and enforcing them woud greatly enhance this event, attract more cars and more spectators. Maybe it would become sort of a defacto "National Championship" event!! It also would not be that expensive or difficult to do.
In summary -- lets learn from our mistakes, make the necessary changes, and move on.
Guest 26-Jul-2005 20:01
After reading the SVRA rules, it becomes clear that this is Real Racing. Weight is set, but engine is free. The fact that the cars appear the way we dream they used to look is similiar to the way those Winged Outlaw Dirt Oval Cars look. This is really nifty.
Might even be able to do a sucker car for a while.
Guest 26-Jul-2005 19:58
Regarding the orange Mustang being lifted by its roof. The owner tells folks he's the largest single stockholder in Road America (and he indeed may be)... so, he knows where to complain to.

;)
Ron O'Connor 26-Jul-2005 19:09
Iwas dissapointed that my Gr 6 Corvette wasn't ready for the BRIC, having run with this group for 20 years, so my sympathes go to my fellow racers in a most heartfelt way.
Not knowing the facts of the incident and only reading the posts here leads me to suggest to the race organizers that 1. The field be informed of a pace lap speed, preferably a slow one so the field can stay together back in the pack.
2. a communication system be adopted that gives those in back needed info on the status of the start.
3.That the starterstart the race no matter howe line-up looks. What does it matter that the field isn't "tight" as was attributed to an official saying who was involved in the start. This isn't an F1 event where one finishes matters to anyone. Unfortunately, it does matter too much to some racers.
With the "bad luck" that Gr. 6 has had at RA, crashes due to oil at s SVRA in 2004, an incident at the BRIC last year allowing only two or so race laps to run, and now this misfortune. we all need to be cool and make some reforms.
Ron OConnor
Guest 26-Jul-2005 16:55
Can anyone explain why the clean up crews insist on doing this?http://www.champweb.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=83&pos=64

I have seen photos of this type of clean up before and I am floored every time. Isn't it bad enough that this guy has to fix the whole front clip on this car? Now he has to redo the roof too? It is purely adding insult to injuy. This car was not sitting on top of another car. It could easily have been flatbedded. I can only assume that driver was off receiving medical treatment when the tow truck "finished the job" on this car.
GM 26-Jul-2005 16:24
Thanks, Chris, for articulating my sentiments. I too have been victim of Road America's unforgiving concrete walls, due to suspension failure, (It's still my favorite track though) and I can certainly concur that it's not something easily forgotten. To have such misfortunune relived through a video, that only serves to placate others curiosity, is, as you very well put it, lacking in class. If such a video hits the web at this point it will only serve to start the finger-pointing and blaming all over again. I can assure you that race organizers will come up with all the evidence, if they haven't already, to make the appropriate changes deemed neccessary from their viewpoint. The biggest changes come from within the ranks of us (we?) competitors, and we certainly don't need a video to tell us that from here on out, race starts, particularly at RA, deserve a large dose of respect!

Mr. Dobson, thet last thing I want to do with this, or any other forum, is to create confrontation, but I have to question how you can come up with such a statement as, "Seeing how this kind of Vintage Racing is really only demonstrative". Where have you been racing? I think I'm safe in saying that only a VERY minor percentage of current vintage racers view what we do as "demonstrative". Not even in my local clubs, Nostalgia and RMVR, which currently have no spectator events, is there such a feeling. We ARE racing!

And as to the roll cage comment.........tell those gentleman on the bottom of that pile, or those buckled into their seats as another car came barreling into them broadside (which I witnessed) that their roll cages are a "joke". I'm sorry sir, but you are waaaaaayy off base.
guest 26-Jul-2005 14:36
...sounds to me (and photos posted here support)that all of the cages functioned perfectly, as evidenced by the survival of all involved ... hardly a 'joke'.
Chris 26-Jul-2005 14:29
I hope all of you that request to see a video stop asking. I have been involved in a few racing accidents in my time(SVRA,SCCA-Pro,and even 2 Brian Redman events), and I can tell you that it's something that no race driver wants to relive or even witness. Those of you who wish to ohhh and awww over a video need to go elsewhere. I'm sure those involved whom wish to investigate the cause will do so elsewhere and not on this forum. Nobody should be gawking over someone's misfortuines and losses. I can tell you first hand that getting over and incident like this is not easy (emotionally and $$$). Lets show a little class, and a little sympathy and try and learn from all of this
Guest 25-Jul-2005 21:51
Bill Dodson, where do I look at these pictures to see these roll cages that are such a joke? Ask Ed Jensen if his roll cage is a joke then ask to see a picture of his driver side door. You don't know what your talking about, stop posting.
Bill Dodson 25-Jul-2005 21:18
GM, I think most people would like to see video of the accident so as to disect it from a technical point of view. Also, I believe it would only be "morbid" if someone was killed (Thank God all involved were relatively OK). Seeing how this kind of Vintage Racing is really only demonstrative (most of the roll cages are a joke which are evident in the pictures) and purely to recreate the sights and sounds from an era gone by , I myself am curious to see exactly how/why this happened. We could all learn from this to avoid future incidents, lest insurance regulations regulate our beloved hobby out of existance.
GM 25-Jul-2005 19:39
I'm curious as to why there have been several posts regarding the desire to aquire video of the event. Are those requesting such a video doing so because they were involved in the accident, or just out of morbid curiousity. If it's the later, I have to say that I find that pretty twisted. I witnessed it from a vantage point a mere 40' from where it happened. Gotta tell you that I wish I hadn't!

As for whomever just posted the request for the video that's apparently available in the Milwaukee Journal...........buy it yourself!!
guest 25-Jul-2005 16:43
where are the videos? someone is selling one in the milwaukee journal. who is going to buy it and put it online for us
Guest 25-Jul-2005 03:04
Along with many others who have posted, I was at RA when the incident occured. In fact, I was in the Group 8 race immediately following Group 6. It is clear to me that no ONE factor caused the mishap. No doubt overexuberance on the part of some participants and the "hill" were contributing factors.

I must disagree with those who believe that vintage racing shouldn't be about winning. I chose vintage over SCCA because I like the old cars, because I can race with less expense due to the rules, and because I didn't want to repair bodywork every other weekend. But I am there to compete, not parade around the track!
Guest 24-Jul-2005 23:13
Can you take a suggestion from an outsider? I haven't raced on a road course since the early 70s, but I did spend 6 years in the 90s running open-wheel modifieds on ovals. On a typical (1/2 mile) oval, if the starter doesn't like the look of the field as it approaches his station, he simply waves off the start, and everyone does one more (at least) pace lap. The starter can pretty clearly signal to the drivers what it is he doesn't like - not close enough, not side by side, or whatever. That's easy on a half-mile but not so practical on a 4+ mile road course. So my question is, would it be reasonable to have a "starter's assistant" a the final turn; someone in radio contact with the starter to advise him if the pack is ready, and more imprtantly, with the authority to wave off a sloppy start before everyone gets their foot deep in the throttle? It seems to me that there never should have been a green flag in this case, and probably wouldn't have been one if the starter had any advance idea of the unruly mob that was approaching him.
Takecare next time guys.
Cheers,
tim turner 24-Jul-2005 02:17
I believe there are many issues to address, but my concern is about the "race".
I have done rescue for 21 years, have been a city firegighter/ paramedic for over 18 years and been a crew member for 17 years. I have done rescue at more tracks than I care to count. I have seen my driver make moves that made me shake my head.
The point is that it doesn't matter if we as a group are turning wrenches, driving or working, we want to bring ourselves and our hardware home. But we would like to do it the fastest. If not that, then why are we running?
Those of us that are highly motivated want to win that "race" whenever possible. We don't want to win at the expense of others, however. But finishing 12th in class is not a lot of fun. The driver wouldn't like it and I wouldn't want to spend that much time to not do well.
I have worked and been at some horrific crashes on starts that included Formula 1, CART, Indy Lights, Pro Formula Atlantic, Trans-Am, the Runoffs...you name it.
To pick out one or two drivers or one class is a mistake. Many people with a great number of racing laps have had a problem. I believe that the only way we can all race together well is to be on the same page on the pace lap and let the chips fall where they may.
If you have a comment, email me at raceduck84@yahoo.com
Guest 24-Jul-2005 00:33
A few more thoughts.

People thinking the drivers were racing before the start have, again, never participated in a race to understand what is happening. When the drivers in the back, or in this case mid pack, have not caught the field behind the pace car they have to go as fast as they can to catch up. This is not "racing". Every one in the field pays the same fee to enter the race. They all want a chance at a fair start in a controlled field.

Was it "racing" when cars around row 4/5 popped out of line? Every been on the freeway when people in front of you check up and someone pops out of line to avoid hitting the car in front of them?

A row 2 driver said he had to put his brakes on and check up. Obviously he had a different expectation about how the start was being handled than did the front row or the official who only told the front row how to do the start.

I do not race vintage/historic (yet), but I hope the people who do race with these organizations will demand for changes to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening again.

Keith Watson
JOhn Hamilton 24-Jul-2005 00:02
I am new to Vintage racing, just having completed my 4 race weekends with CVAR. I'm glad no one was seriously injured, although the sight of so many beautiful cars wrecked is catastrophic by itself. CVAR stresses the "fun and safe" aspects of Vintage racing as opposed to "win at all costs", which suits me just fine, considering the costs involved in restoring and maintaining a race car. I simply can't afford to replace my car due to overly aggressive drivers making mistakes or taking chances. I would also be horrified if I were to cause another racer to bend his car, since I can't afford to replace his car, either. For me, it all boils down to attitude... protect the other racers and the race cars above all else. Good luck to all of the racers who are now building or rebuilding after this incident, I hope to see you on the track in the future. Remember, check the attitude!

JohnHamilton68@aol.com
Tim 23-Jul-2005 18:59
I have been traveling to events at Road America since 1983. This was the worst incident that I have seen at this track. I was also at the event this past May when a driver had to be air-lifted to a hospital from turn 11. I am happy to hear that no one was seriously hurt in this huge crash.
For this race I was in between turn 14 and the hill at the start of this race. From what I saw, the pace car pulled off of the track and onto pit lane directly in front of me. It appeared to be going at the speed that the other posts had mentioned, of around 55 mph. The leaders appeared not to change their as they climed the hill. As the rest of the field was coming past my position, I would have to say that their speed was a bit higher. I would have to say that from 2/3 to the back of the pack was moving at a much higher speed. As the end of the field was going up the hill and under the pedestrian bridge, I saw the White Mustang's #71 brake lights comming on. At the same time I saw the flag station under the same bridge throw the red flag. I could see the dust cloud further down the strait and I went to take a look. After reading the other posts here and from what I saw.
(1) I feel that if the pace car could start gathering the cars up at the "Kink" which would be turn 11. This would give a good long stretch to Canada Corner and all the way to pit lane for the drivers to have a good line up. That way the back markers would not be trying to play catch up as they head up the hill to the blind start strait.
(2) There should also be some sort of communication from either corners 13A or 14 back to the race officials as to the line up of the cars.
(3) If there were a set of lights that would be controled by the corner worker at the pedestrian bridge, Lets say 3 lights of each color; red,yellow and green. That would be very easy for the drivers to see as they are comming up the hill. That worker could be contacted by the start tower to go from yellow to a green start if all is well with the group. If that station saw a problem between the bridge and the start line the light could be switched to yellow or red if need be. That position near the bridge is a very tough place for a flag to be seen. Since the drivers are concentrating on the cars in front of them. Not on a flag station of track to the right.

If some of this were put into place it may make for a safer start. It was a total shame that this happened to so many great cars and very good people. There is always next year and Hopfully things are learned from this event and thing are changed for the better.
Roger Corby 23-Jul-2005 02:44
Does anyone think that this incident would have been as serious as it was if drivers coming up the hill on the SF straight could see ahead of them? It seems obvious to me, and yet I've read only one or two comments about this. The "accordion effect" is always a potential problem in a large field, but you hardly ever see cars stacked 3 high like in the BRIC pileup. That's because if somebody (drivers OR officials) screws up, backmarkers usually can begin evasive action before they get to the problem area. Not so at RA.
Bill Sherman 23-Jul-2005 01:47
A very sad experience and I'm thankful there were so few injuries. Opinions seem very hot and very varied, so I will avoid all of those. The potential for this to happen always exists and this time, it did.

I see Jack Woerhle and others are complaining that one factor is the lack of uniformity between racing sanctioning groups. Some race, some don't, some are tight on rules, some use them to start BBQs. There seems to be a cry for a national consistency.

Seems to me, there used to be. However, many vintage racers went vintage racing to get away from those "stifling and oppressive rules, changed at the drop of a hat" for the "relaxed friendly atmosphere of vintage racing". It was called SCCA.

It seems to me that vintage racing was about taking a vintage race car out on the track, driving it quickly, and putting on a show for the spectators along with the thrill of running the old iron once again. It wasn't about winning. It wasn't about trophies. It wasn't about the drivers. I remember a vintage race at an SCCA regional in Florida. Everyone got a trophy. I think the entry was $100 that weekend. What a novel idea, that oppressive national organization, allowed old cars to come out, drive fast, had a full set of national rules, and not worry about anyone smashing them, for only $100.

What does your organization charge for a race?

Would it be the answer to this? I have no idea. But a dozen different vintage groups apparently don't have the answer, either.
Jim Fay, #55 group 6 22-Jul-2005 22:28
This forum started as an analysis of the “big one”. Initially, I like too, like many of the letters posted started to criticize the VSCDAs’ loose rule allowance. But on second thought I realized it has both positive and negatives for the participants and in fact has nothing to do with the accident. So to those who are lumping all the cars in group 6 as cheaters you are 100% wrong. Many of the owners take great efforts to run their cars in true period correctness ( Brain Kennedy, Steve Platter & John Safro are 3 I know of personally ) and some stretch the rules where VSCDA allows (the Hartwig cars, my car and many others). But that has nothing to do with the accident. A tighter, better communicated and more controlled starting procedure will help to eliminate this problem in the future. Lets keep this discussion on point before it leads in a direction most of us will regret.
RMN 22-Jul-2005 21:48
I have been in racing for years (over 15yrs) I feel when you have a very large group of cars that are so modified , the drive's should have to have radios where they can talk to their crew chief who has to be lisening the the control tower. The same way the pro teams do. If they had radios thier crew cheifs could have told their drivers that is was a drive bye. Yes it was a big group but, the fact is the drivers thought it was going green when it did not. If the teams are alouded to modife the car in the ways they do to make them faster, they should also be made to make them safer too. Rollbars are manditory why not radios?
bossracer 22-Jul-2005 20:59
The Brian Redman Intl. Challenge is not, and has not for some time been, "vintage racing". It appears to be race cars that look like old racers. There should be an immediate call to remove the Vintage Motorsports Council "umbrella" from this group. It is not vintage racing. Let these guys with their fine cars that don't conform to any set of rules find a good home to race at. But vintage, they are not.
Bill Peter 22-Jul-2005 20:43
Non racers making assumptions irritates me and I am sure , other drivers as well. I drove the Can Am race and the only indication I had the race was on was the cars in front got louder. I cannot see through the wing in front of me,the heat is intense,the exhaust from the cars in front is starting to make my eyes water and I am within a few hundred feet of the starter before I can see him. If you have not raced a car in a competetive situation, and this is competetive, you can't understand all that is going on. I return to the starter and the pace car. They have radios!! Use them. If the field is 2X2 and tight there is no speed differential and no racing in the back of the field. If it takes going back to turn 8 to line up 60 cars then do it, or , take another lap. You can forget everything else as far as I am concerned. As far as I can tell these guys were not racing, they were trying to catch up.
TF- watched the "start" 22-Jul-2005 19:47
OK - I saw the post about Keith Watson having it right about 5 times - I'm not so sure that I agree fully. I accept the fact that only telling the front row about a slower start isn't the best idea - however, they do set the pace and several cars behind were way out of line BEFORE the Green Flag flew and they WERE within site of the bridge at that time........ The added on pile up could be avoided with a warning light on the pedestrian bridge - but the best idea I've seen so far is that NO racing until you SEE the green flag (read as DRIVER ACTUALLY SEE's the flag) - same as no racing until crossing S/F line. THe starter has EVERY RIGHT to abort a start if he feels the group is out of line - that wouldn't have prevented the original accident in this case (racing was occuring w/out a green anyway)- but it may have slowed cars back further if they had spotters. All the talk about not being able to see over the hill - or see over the car in front - you all can see the bridge once you crest the hill and you can all see what the flag is then - it's really quite simple. It's a vintage race, you don't win money for it, in the big scheme of things it doesn't even really matter - it's for your fun and for the fun of the spectators - beating the guy next to you or the guy in front of you on the start doesn't get you a darn thing. The guys I feel for are the guys blasting up the hill not knowing anything was wrong - but the guys in front (not THE front - but near the front) caused a very bad incident by racing BEFORE the green fell - the late green is a false idea - the starter didn't even HAVE to give you one (a very scary assumption). You MUST WAIT for a flag before racing - a pretty basic premise that was blown before the flag flew.
Insulted 22-Jul-2005 18:57
The comment regarding "crazed cheater PCA Porsches" is highly insulting. Don't bring the PCA into this fiasco. Glad no one was seriously hurt.
Guest 22-Jul-2005 18:19
Steve McDonald: who preps your car? Email me please at PAI_Racing@hotmail.com. Thanks!
Guest 22-Jul-2005 17:46
Does anyone know how many of these cars were "Historic" vs. "vintage"?

I think there is a sigificant distinction there. I think that cars with real race history should be period correct. That's what Historic Trans Am and Monterrey are all about. It is a pretty parade for cars that were really there.

Then guys who want to run vintage cars (eg an old Camaro that was getting groceries in Tarzana back in '68 rather than racing) should be allowed to make modifications, within reason, and still run with other vintage cars. I think Steve had it right, brakes, tires, suspension type, displacement and body appearance should look period, but smart mods that promote longevity and cost effective performance should be allowed. I don't see why these cars shouldn't be raced (rather than paraded).

The concern comes when people mix historic cars and vintage cars. I'd guess that a guy with a real Gurney 'Cuda ($400K at Barrett this year?) has a lot more to loose than I do with my '67 Camaro that I pulled out of someone's back yard and "race-stored" to "vintage race" spec (not that I plan to flush the $60K plus that I spent down the toilet).

Just split them up and let the parade guys parade and the race guys race. There is nothing wrong with either, just different priorities.
JACK WOEHRLE 22-Jul-2005 17:32
Jerry Gollnick has made several positive points. As Jerry will tell you, I can sometimes be “arbitrary and capricious” in my interpretation of the rules. I have refrained from commenting until now since the postings have focused primarily on the BRIC incident. However, as a result we seem to have a forum consisting of many of the right people whereby some worthwhile consolidation talks might result.

Firstly, not to belabor the point but starting at Road America has always been problematic but for the most part consistent in nature. The pace car usually loses half of the field and then slows somewhat at turn 14-15. There is normally some regrouping as the pace car heads up the hill and enters the pit lane. For some reason Race Control is rarely informed by the corners or chooses to ignore the fact that stragglers are at race speed tying to form up. I have experienced this with varying degrees of frustration as far back as the old CHR days. Obviously once the rush starts and the stampede mentality kicks in, any unexpected action or object can cause a chaotic or in this case catastrophic situation. Racing requires instant processing of all the available information. The farther back in a big field you are, the less information you have. In this case only the front row knew of the slow start possibility and the rest were operating on past experience and blind faith. I don’t see how any of the drivers can but found at fault.

Secondly, Jerry has brought up the point of car specification standards and in particular, the SVRA “medallion” cars. An SVRA medallion only commemorates the fact that on the day the medallion was issued; the car in question had been documented to have the required period history and was to our knowledge in compliance with the SVRA Rules and Regulations in affect at that time.

Many cars with a medallion are no longer prepared to SVRA standards. In particular, it is not uncommon for drivers such as Jerry and others to have a “BRIC” motor and perhaps even a “BRIC” package that includes many upgrades beyond the engine. I wonder if I should attend such events and reclaim the medallions on these cars?

However, I sense in Jerry’s comments a growing desire amongst many of these same drivers to have a truly universal preparation standard that is enforced and reasonable. We at SVRA have such a program and have offered to share it with VSCDA. Several other East Coast groups recognize our standards. The main issue is one of ability and desire to actually enforce written rules rather than what they are. There are definitely “territorial” issues between organizations and that has a tendency to exacerbate the “why should we change?” mentality.

I believe that the West Coast/East Coast differences are more perceived than fact when comparing cars that are properly prepared to the rule of their racing organization.

Over the years I have been involved in a number of discussions and even a few controversies regarding SVRA “rules” and Vintage Racing regulations in general. I have always though we ought to be able to come up with a uniformity that most competitors can accept and deal with. However, there apparently is also a market for events that go beyond what most would consider appropriate. I think if you want to support these venues then you should be willing to accept whatever the consequences are.

JACK WOEHRLE
jwoesvra@aol.com
Guest 22-Jul-2005 16:56
That must have been scary for the Vette driver to have a Firebird and Camaro on his roll bar. Wouldn't it be smart to make cages mandatory over roll bars in an open car like that? Anyone know of a link that has a video of this mishap? I am sure quite a few cars had cameras and someone must have been taping it from the top of the media center. I am starting to build a roadster and I think my plans for a roll bar have just turned into a full roll cage like in my closed car.
Guest 22-Jul-2005 16:32
I was working the Grid and I saw the tire fly over the wall and all the cars keep just slamming into each other and it was one of the most frightening things that I have ever seen. I am so glad that no one was seriously hurt. The car underneath the #6 Camaro was a yellow Corvette. My fiance who was working on the grid ran over to see if he was all right and the cockpit of his car had the #6 Camaro on one side, and the #31 Pontiac on the other. The cars landed so that there was a 3 foot gap where his head could fit and thats where he was. It is amazing that he was ok.
Guest 22-Jul-2005 15:12
Looks like there's a car under the #6 Camaro but can't make out what it is. Any idea what car or driver? Sorry to see such nice cars end up in that condition but glad to hear that there were no fatalities.
Guest 22-Jul-2005 13:34
Aside from the racing rules, and how they are administered, and the fact that the hill should be bulldozed and made flat to turn one, what about the cars? The cars should be as they were back then, including the tires (apology to Hoosier). Otherwise the preparation "creep" that has taken over will lead, very shortly, to arguments about banning traction control on Scarabs and body templates to prevent Smokey's 9/10s cars (like that 120 Coupe). Thinking drivers watching flags instead of listening to "spotters".
It could still be fun. Or, isn't there an "Unlimited" class in NASA where some might be happier?
Guest 22-Jul-2005 12:55
I have read many of the posts. Racing is racing. No matter if it's SVRA, SCCA, NASCAR, or whatever. If you want to safely race, the stewards and workers MUST control the event. Get out the SCCA rule book and follow it. Expel the guys that jump the start, ignore red flags, and don't follow the rules. I've raced SCCA for 15 years all around the midwest. If you break the rules, the steward takes care of it. You can't race safely without rules. Don't give them back thier entry fees when they are ejected and don't let them race anymore.
Peter Dock 22-Jul-2005 12:47
I suppose the time has come for an "Old-timer" to comment on this event.
I campaigned a 1963 Split-window Z06 on the SCCA circuit from 1965-67. Raced 3 times at Elkhart (2 June Sprints – 1966,67 and the USRRC in 1966).
The start at RA was always ‘interesting’ because we were carrying more speed when we took the green.
When we ran at RA, you, as a driver, MUST have had either a SCCA National License or a FIA License. (I was SCCA Licensed for the June 66 Sprints, and FIA licensed for the other races). As a driver you knew that the other drivers were just as ‘qualified’ ! Apparently the drivers in the Vintage Race may be less qualified.
Bud Sevrens was the Chief Steward at RA, and he was an absolutely NO NONSENCE starter !!! He was very dictatorial at his Driver’s Meetings. He left NO questions regarding the start of a race ! NO PASSING BEFORE THE START FINISH LINE ! If you did so, your race was OVER ! He would Black flag you on the next lap and you became a spectator.
I do agree with the comments about the ‘red fog’. I don’t remember that it was ‘red’, but your vision was definitely obscured at the start, even though we probably starting in the 80-100 mph range.
Seems to me that Mr. Sevrens suggested, at one of the meetings, that we ‘start passing’ on the run from #3 to #5. After all, the races were 200-500 miles in length... plenty of time to do your passing.
It is good that no one was seriously injured, but what a shame, looking at all those beautiful cars, many of which I may have raced against. The Lola sure looked familiar !
An aside: It appears that they have narrowed the main straight. Unless that barrier is only temporary. We had much more room coming up the hill.... at least that is the way I remember it.
Guest 22-Jul-2005 12:14
Anyone who still has questions on why this happened, look at Keith Watsons 5 points, he is spot-on. Namely the 50 MPH speed told to front row ONLY. I have had near 30 starts at R/A and have never started that slow. Yes I fully understand the starter controls the start with a green flag, but none of us have ever started a group 6 race that slow. If the FIELD would have known this, we would've got to run our 8 laps.
Jerry Gollnick 22-Jul-2005 04:42
JERRY GOLLNICK P7
This posting process is great! It's the first time I've seen vintage drivers all"get together" to disuss issues.The various threads pretty well lay out what happened and why. Hopefully, changes will be made to prevent the confusion at the start from happening again.
My concern is that we, as a group of vintage drivers, are subjected to many different santioning bodies' rules and track peculiarities.
I participated at the HSR Sebring event this spring and we had a similar multicar mess at the start of that race.
I then went to SVRA at Mid Ohio and witnessed the ejection of two drivers for over-agressive driving on the Saturday qualifying race. Justified or not, it seemed to settle things down a little for the Sunday race.
Now the BRIC mess. I drive(drove) a beautifully prepared and construted car that is an old ED Lowthar race car from the 60s. I am not looking forward to the expense and labor of putting the car back together but I love the car and I will. I race because I love the cars and enjoy the company of people that also love old cars. I try and do well because I respect the people and the skill they have to race these old beasts and I want their respect in doing something that is difficult well. These are good folks with cars they care about as much as I do. No one wants this to happen, or in hindsight would ever do anything to endanger others. We need to work together to figure out how to do this thing we love and do it in a way that meets all our needs, not just the rush of adrenaline.
As I said, a VSCDA drivers committee at the BRIC will sort thngs out. They will do what they believe is best. I'm not as confident that the track will make any corrections or that changes will be in place for next year.
Most of us travel to these Premier events at the various tracks. They are controlled by many differnt race groups, santioning bodies and track owners.
It would be helpful if we as a group of vintage drivers had some consistant rules and procedures.
How do we as a body of vintage race car drivers have input to the "sport of vintage racing"? The goal of us as vintage drivers, to have a safe and fun experience is not necessarily the same goal of the many, many race organizations that have their own vision of what vintage racing is and how to attract the largest attendance. There is a central vintage racing organization already in existance. Could this group gather up its best brightest most expirienced drivers and take on the task of finding a common set of rules for things such as starting procedures and drivers santion practices? This would help us know what to expect as we attend the many evets around the country. I know each organization might have to give up a little of it's turf but isn't this best for the sport?
Secondly , wouldn't it be nice to have some common standards for vintage race car prparation. Each santioning group has different ideas about what is important to regulate on a vintage race car. I would really like to go and participate at some of the great west coast tacks but cars prepared to "Medallion SVRA" status are not viewed as "vintage' for most of the big events. The santioning bodies have erected barriers so that you need a east coast car and a west coast cars. Good grief, how can that be good for the sport? We drivers are the common thread that needs to pull down the barriers and inject some sense into a sport that is important to us.
I personally would volunteer to help pull something like this together. I'd be happy to work to find common ground and help make this sport fun, safe(relatively) and something that we can enjoy accross the country. I can be reached a dnik@aol.com
Finally, since I was one of the 17 cars that incured seroius damage and therefore serious costs, I'm wondering if the track and it's insurance can be approached for some help for those of us caught up in the mess. It is clear that the track bears some responsibility for the many reasons noted in earlier posts. This is an extreme situtation. How can we as the group 6 drivers affected approach this question?
Three races three tracks three santioning bodies, all with problems.
Will Rogers 22-Jul-2005 03:56
Very sad sight to see. I've been to Road America for vintage races a few times and have met a number of the racers who were involved in the accident including Billy and Brian Morrison(yellow Corvette convertibles). They're a great bunch of guys and I'm sad to see all of their work destroyed.
Jim Fay, #55 group 6 22-Jul-2005 03:32
OK. Now thay so many have had a chance to rip our sport, our cars, our drivers, our intentions, our efforts, our track and our sanctioning body how about we spend the next week with suggestions on making this and all starts safer. Many commentators on this forum are speaking positivley and constructivley. There should be enough collective brain power among the drivers to find a solution to minimize the start problem and... hopefully enough open minds in VSCDA and Road America to listen.
guest racer 22-Jul-2005 02:53
That would be R/A president, CEO and "micro manager" George Bruggenthies!!
Guest 22-Jul-2005 02:42
Boy, does Keith Watson have it right! Whoever ordered telling (5 minutes before the start) only 2 in a grid of 47, about a drastically reduced speed start from normal, & (maybe to throw a late green) contributed greatly to this fiasco. What a shame! This has given a huge black eye to vintage, & (mostly undeserved) to Grp 6. I sure hope the track fixes this problem. By the grace of God, everyone is safe and no one was killed, as could have easily happened; Hopefully everyone will be able to rebild their wonderful cars.
Rick Hayden 22-Jul-2005 01:51
Perhaps we need to lighten up as we go into the weekend, and remember what they SHOULD have taught us when we first started pursuing this wonderful sport:

Track Tips for the Racing Novice

1. Racing isn't dangerous: Crashing is dangerous.

2. It is better to be spectating and wishing you were out there,
than out there and wishing you were spectating.

3. Learn from the mistakes of others; you will never live long
enough to make all of them yourself.

4. To win, you must first finish; to finish, you must first start. To
start, you must first spend an inordinate amount of time and
money.

5. Drive your own race. Others will be all too happy to tell you
what you did wrong.

6. Every driver knows the 3 simple tricks for winning races;
ask your closest competitors to share theirs.

7. An oversteering car generates higher slip angles at the rear
than the front. Keep all slip angles under 360 degrees.

8. Wear a full-face helmet. It will be easier to hide your fear.

9. Choose a close-fitting racing seat. Do not get it brown.

10. Wear ear plugs; they muffle the jeers and catcalls of
spectators

11. Good judgement comes from experience; unfortunately, the
experience usually comes from bad judgement.

12. Wave to corner workers. They will doubtless be talking about
you on their radios, and it will easier for them to refer to you as
"the idiot who is waving."

13. Obey All Flags:

Green: "All Clear" - You are free to retire from the
event at your convenience.
Yellow: "Danger" - Be alert and do not allow the faster
cars behind to pass you.
Yellow/Red Stripes: "Surface" flag (see #7 above, "Slip
Angles")
White: "Emergency Vehicle On Course" - One lap to
go before he passes you.
Blue/Yellow Stripe: "Mirror" flag - A faster competitor
is closing; watch your mirrors and be prepared to block.
Black: "AwShit" flag - You have committed the uncon-
scionable; come in immediately to re-take the
written exam.
Black/Orange circle: "Meatball" - Mechanical black
flag. You have been disqualified for your illegal
cam lobes.
Red:Proceed at a pace fast enough to beat everyone left with four corners on their car to the nearest shade tree
Checker: Wave to the corner workers, you idiot!

14. Be gracious in defeat, and less than insufferably arrogant in
victory.

15. Remove your arm restraints before the trophy presentation.

16. And remember, it is OK to start racing with an empty bag of experience if you also have a bag full of luck. Fill the bag of
experience before you empty the bag of luck.


Compilation copyright Rick Hayden, 2000;2005
all rights reserved
Guest 22-Jul-2005 00:41
Bad deal. The tours I compete with mandate one way communication with the race director. All we do is listen. Though not fool proof, it's a wonderful safety tool. Many times on ragged starts we recieve to the green while being told "no start". This give us time to regroup without incident. If the track goes red suddenly, at least the drivers are somewhat in the loop.


I don't intend to be critical of anyone. Just sharing something that has helped our little corner of motorsport. Best of luck to all involved.
Dick Kantrud 21-Jul-2005 23:03
To Doug Johnson. I was in 3rd gear in corner 1. Corner 2 is a downshift. The red apparently came out at about the time we were in 1 and the cars I mentioned were bunched up as we entered the corner, I came out in P2. Drivers can't in most cases see the flags off to the side of where they are, just ahead in their normal field of vision. I may have gotten mixed up trying to state where we were but speaking in terms of corners we saw the red coming in to corner 2 and slowed down to a crawl, stopping just after corner 2 nowhere near the bridge. After I stopped I idled up about 30 ft as there was some shade there and we had no idea of what was going on. Dick K
Steve Schuler 21-Jul-2005 22:58
This is a VERY horrible thing to see all these beautiful cars damaged like this, and fortunately, everybody is OK (that is most important). I don’t think the blame can be placed on any one thing or person or governing body. It was just a combination of factors. Like any other form of Auto Racing, Vintage Racing is inherently dangerous and I think that all of us that do it understand that it is. Simply put, this is what it is, a racing accident. After all, this is Vintage Racing, not a Vintage lapping day or Car show.

Hopefully, we can all take a look at the factors that contributed to this tragedy, and maybe make all of our future racing a little safer.

Steve Schuler
Dave Young 21-Jul-2005 22:00

I'm almost 60 and raced sports cars but have had a stroke and can't drive any more. I missed going cause my mom was in the hospital - - I just want to know!! Is this really NASCAR???!!! I thought we sportscar guys who race for fun and maybe a trophy were a bit above this!??? (old C.I.R. guy)




Guest 21-Jul-2005 21:31
I'ts good to hear no one was seriously hurt.

Now that I've read the whole thread there are contributing factors which stand out as to why this accident happened. It appears the officials are first of all ignoring what it is like in the race car immediately prior to the green flag. It is the most anxious moment of any race do to it's highly uncontrolled nature in tight quarters. While some drivers are trying to anticipate (jump) the start many others are simply trying to stay close to the car in front of them and not blow the start and get jumped. Having been in many starts myself, all you can do is follow the people in front of you. Most of the time if you are more than a few rows back in sedans you cannot even see the starters stand so there again, all you can do is the same thing the car ahead of you is doing. Once the accordian effect starts this type of incident is the ultimate result. The drivers did nothing wrong based on the constraints the officials put on them.

So what were contributing factors to the accordian effect and the resulting large pileup?

1. The officials told the first row what they wanted to see for the start. A driver in the first row and another witness confirmed this. They told the starter what they wanted to see. But the rest of the field was not told. Starts can often be increasing speed before the flag. Simply telling the whole field a constant speed will be held until the green flag is shown will do a lot to reduce the jockeying for position (fore and aft). See current NASCAR starting procedures.

2. The pace car did not pick up the field and have control over it. The driver in row 11 reported he and the cars around him were at full speed coming onto the straight still trying to catch the field. Not being able to pick up the first 10 rows on a 4 mile course in inexcusable. Locally 20 rows of cars are picked up all the time on our 2 mile course.

3. The green flag was thrown after contact had already started. This was probably unavoidable but is still a contributing factor. Remember, if any driver has a radio they are being told "green, green, green" when that flag comes out.

4. Officials, especially starters, always seem to think the entire grid can see the starters flags (green or red) and respond immediately. That is naive and shows they have never been in a race car that has participated in a start. The starter wants a tight field which means cars back in the field (especially sedans) cannot see over/around/through the cars in front of them.

5. This track is blind coming up the hill AND the driver has no line of sight to any flag stations. So there was no way to communicate the condition of the course to drivers coming up the hill.

So the factors which contributed to this accident have nothing to do with car prep, driver attitudes, etc. and have everything to do with the environment the drivers were given for the start.

Keith Watson
Guest 21-Jul-2005 19:56
Ugh! Okay, so it's MY "championship". You view it however you darn well wish!!
Guest 21-Jul-2005 19:34
If the Donahue corvette was 3 seconds faster than the second place car (as mentioned below), you are NOT seeing the best of the best in Group 6 race at the BRIC. I'm sure it is a great event, but I would hardly consider this race the National Championship of vintage racing.
Greg Mathews 21-Jul-2005 18:00
Just to clarify my statement about the BRIC being our national championship, or at least that that's how I view it. I mean that in that I view it as an opportunity to guage my driving ability and car preparation against the best of the best. And not that I will do whatever it takes to win a piece of crystal. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do well, but there certainly is when it's done in a fashion that disregards safety and consequences. Don't want anybody getting their panties in a bunch over a misinterpreted statement : )
cprevenas 21-Jul-2005 17:51
I have been reading and following this page for the entire week. Gathering opinions, hearing the facts, listening to the finger pointing...and I walk away with one major detail that is being missed. The BRIC is the second largest vintage event in the world next to Goodwood! That's a big deal, and a big deal brings spectators, and in this case...the spectators got screwed. None of you seem to care about that, you would rather point fingers, call each other cheaters, place blame etc. Granted, that is a natural thing to do. But there were a lot of people there completely amped up to see Group 6 race. To see you all put your car on the ragged edge each lap, but gracefully keep it in control. I know for myself, wearing the captains vest (I'am a corner worker) at Turn 8 when Group 6 was about to start..I WAS PUMPED UP! Not for carnage and disaster, but to see you guys do your thing. To see you drop a wheel off exiting 8, have the car step out ever so slightly, then gather back up in a thing of beauty. Which is what all the spectators were there to see, but they got screwed. Remember each time you strap in at the BRIC that you are at one of the best racing events in the world, it doesn't deserve black eyes. As a corner worker, and a race fan, I felt deflated when I found out you guys couldn't even get to Turn 1. I am glad that everyone is okay and hope to see you all next year again, but let's do it proper next time.
ANON 21-Jul-2005 16:50
We were at BRIC a few years back. It's a great event, in a wonderful setting.
However, we elected to NOT participate in any of the 'racing' because, during practice sessions on the first couple days, it was evident this was a free-for-all kind of affair and we couldn't afford to prang the car (nor would any enthusiast expect us to.)
We never went back- deciding to stay in our own backyard where we know the players and the rhythm.
This is NOT intended to besmirch the quality of the field, the drivers, nor the organizers of the BRIC.

In aviation it is widely known that any 'incident' is the result of a series of small mistakes or errors in judgment.
When I was directed to Dick Carlson's imagery here I was immediately repulsed by the automotive carnage depicted.
Thank goodness bodily injury was kept to a minimum. It could have been a lot worse.
BUT- look at all those great cars torn asunder! That's a terrible loss to our common automotive history. It's very sad.

In our arena the rules are very strict about where and when the racing starts, as well how to properly approach a start. It is set in stone, hammered into our heads (time and time again), and stuck to or you're OUT.
Add to that, this is 'heavy metal' we're driving- in value, and historic significance.
You are to treat it with a greater respect than 'just a car', of course.

We call it 'twenty foot unless you're familiar racing'; you don't get too close, no matter what, because it doesn't make any sense to jeopardize the goods.
It's called a 'race' but it's not. Any trophy, ribbon or plaque you get is just for decoration anyway. There's no national championship or sponsorship at stake.
It's just old cars driven with gusto.

By the looks of it, the combination of mistakes had to do with spacing and speed.
The dreaded accordion effect, wherein the fast movers in back overtook the stutter step start in front.
There's no telling why or how the grid got so stretched out (should have been bunched by Hurry Downs). Something may have happened six or eight turns earlier that aggravated the condition of poor spacing.

At the very bottom of it- analyzing what happened isn't a benefit if you cannot (or fail to) look at the results with clear vision. This has to be done, of course.
Ultimately, it's not WHAT happened, it's what you're going to DO about it next time (so it never happens again).

We're wiser for what happened, poorer for what has been lost, and thankful no one perished in the incident.
Good luck to the owners on fixing up their cars. God speed to those who need to heal, and be SMART to the organizers who run the show- as they fix the problem.
Guest 21-Jul-2005 16:36
I'm pleased there were no serious injuries and saddened seeing the pix of these cars. Some years I've been on Road America more than 30 days between instructing and racing. I've raced there in group 2, 8 in vintage and sometimes both. I've sometimes feared something like this @ RA not from a green flag but an aborted start, when the anticipated green flag is not shown. I've seen fender benders and traded some paint myself in aborted starts @ RA.
Some comments here made me look. My handiest reference is the 1977 scca GCR. On page 178 6 (G), I find "The race shall be underway throughout the field at the instant the green flag is waved, and passing may occur at any point, within reasonable safety standards." Especially at RA, this will lead many to anticipate the green. Unless I'm wrong, this is applicable to almost all roadracing in the US. The way this can work @ RA with a large field (80 cars is possible)starting the race: The pole sitter is close to the start/finish line. Starter waves the green. Control says green to all corners (Yellow flags at all stations come down). P60 is correct to start passing when the yellow comes down at 14 or even 13, if he is back that far when the race is started by the green flag. Lights on the bridge is not a bad idea. I don't recall the sun being a problem @ RA except going in 6 and somewhere after 1 approaching 3.
Is there a way to conact people that have made comments here?
David Hinton, you bloody dam cheater, please email me ojrallye@vclassics.com

David Hueppchen
Greg Mathews 21-Jul-2005 16:22
The addition of a traffic/status light being added to the bridge might sound good but there is a problem with that idea. You still have to concider the area between the top of the hill and start/finish, which is monitored by the station under the bridge. I have been personally involved in two different situations in that area of the track. A few years ago I had an axle brake which left me dead against the pit wall just over the crest of the hill, the other, just this past weekend, I witnessed a fellow competitor resting in the same position . Both times an unsuspecting driver crested the hill on the inside lane and had to take immediate evasive maneuvers to avoid hitting the parked vehicle. None of the involved drivers saw a flag at that station, for whatever the reason, which leads me to believe that anything that could distract drivers attention away from that very important flag station, which is already hard enough to see, could bring about negative consequences? Wouldn't an added light to the bridge be such a distraction, or just plain confusing? The start/finish line might be green, but the section of the track before that could be yellow.

As I, and other posters to this thread have mentioned, no passing until after turn #1 has been proven effective. If you can't pass the guy in front of you in the 8 race laps alotted, you're where you deserve to be!

As I have now had several days to reflect on the events that transpired at the '05 BRIC, I find myself with some very strong feelings about where this event, or at least the attitiudes of it's participants, has gone. Let me preface my statements with this. I LOVE the BRIC. I concider it vintage racing's national championships. But after a three year absence I witnessed a substantial jump in the overall aggressiveness, as well as car preparation. Having competed in 2 race groups (7 & 8) I found myself having to take evasive maneuvers to avoid being hit on 3 different occasions during Sunday's races. Now I'd like to think that I'm a reasonably competent driver, having won group 8 a few times and having just won the group 7 Can-Am race (thanks crew), and have never been squeemish about a little aggressiveness, but at this point I find it highly unlikely that I'll be returning to this event in '06, or ever again unless changes are made. This saddens me greatly because I have always thought, and still do, that Road America is the greatest track that I have ever driven and the thought of not returning hurts me. But my 2 teenaged daughters and I witnessed the Group 6 fiasco (it could happen in any group) unfold right before our eyes and I'm simply not willing to risk becoming a racing statistic at the hands of somebody elses over aggressiveness!
Guest 21-Jul-2005 14:32
I was standing on the roof of the tower. As a couple of other people have written, I agree.

"It seemed to me that 2 cars jumped the start - one went right (to the wall) the other jumped "up the middle". I saw no smoke, no "engine blew up" indicators until AFTER the crashing started. Once the incident started (I did not see a "root cause"), it just kept going. Cars should NOT be turned sideways at a start!"

I'll add that the front two cars were side by side, running at a constant pace, from the bridge until the green. No finger pointing as the cause, but someone behind the leaders jumped and was running against the pit wall in a White Corvette, a dark car went left. Since I was looking back towards the spinning car, I don't know if these cars crossed the line four wide. It was behind these cars that a black car on the inside, somehow got turned sideways, maybe rear ended. That's where the cars checked up to avoid and the group behind piled in. I'm not blaming anyone for what happened!

I hate to see all these fine machines that got bent. I hate to see all the finger pointing. It was a racing incident up front, with the situation being cars following, accelerating, unable to avoid or stop. Some cars that did stop or slow, trying to get through the small open portion of the track, got rear ended, causing second and third pileups.

For those who asked. Cars involved and left on track were pos. 7 through 29 with the exception of pos. 8,18, and 27. I have no idea if they made it clean or just had minor dammage and drove on later. The car starting 28th #81 Orange Corvette, stopped on track apparently without making any contact, behind the pile against pit wall.

Pure and simple, someone, somehow, got turned sideways, and that caused the accident that followed. If anyone has an in car camera shot, as alluded to in the comments, it might prove my personal observations wrong. But that's what I saw, that's what my notes say.
steve 21-Jul-2005 14:31

Hey Bill, someone was asking for a post by a participant who was involoved. I'm not trying to lay any blame, just give an accurate account of the force that I got hit with. If you are the yellow car which is probably 2600 lbs buried 3/4 of the way under my car (3100 lbs) with Firebird on the top of both of us you didn't get there going 30-40 mph. Where the 81 car stopped behind you doesn't have anything to do with it. Regards, Steve
LONGSHOT SIX 21-Jul-2005 13:57
YO! Bill/Steve --- I have a pair of matched pistols I will loan them to you. Only one of you needs to return them. Grow up guys!! Better yet, turn this into a "reality" show; hopefully your ratings will be better than your driving. LONGSHOT SIX
Bill--disgusted 21-Jul-2005 13:45
Just to set the record straight "Steve", I was driving the yellow 77 & did not hit you at the claimed velocity, as I nearly got stopped, going no more than 30-40MPH when arriving at the pile; as evidence, the 81 car WAS able to stop 10' behind me. As the Firebird was allready there & imbedded in your trunk, I assume you are confused on the timeframe.
Doug Johnson 21-Jul-2005 12:34
First, one more comment or two on the red flag, then on to the more important matter of fixing the problem.
To Mr.Kantrud, the red flag was up and big at station 2. You and about 7 other cars came through at full speed and upshifting. I don't know why you didn't see it, but it wasn't due to cars "around" you, as you were all single file. Some behind you saw it and waved. If you stopped "in some shade" past three, you were (at best) at the Sargento bridge, station 3A, a loooong way down track from 3. Based on the corner reports, the first cars did not stop until station 4, where at this time of day, the trees might have still been providing a bit of shade.
To Mr. Jones, even at the start of the race, while you may think there is 4 miles of open track in front of you, unless you have God Almighty on your pit radio spotting for you, you have no idea what is actually beyond the first red flag you see. We do not display these flags for minor incidents, and you have no idea if the incident you saw in your rearview mirror, or just drove through, is the only reason for the red.
To Mr. Pizano, you are correct, there are many cameras at this track, but unfortunately, the configuration is such that the incident was not captured, in any usable fashion, by either the camera at 14 (top of the hill is its end of sight) or the one on the roof of the media center (it was facing turn 1). In car cameras are the best video evidence of this event (unless some spectator caught it on their handheld somewhere).

Now, on to "what could we do differently?"
First, I don't thinkg placing lights on the pedestrian bridge are the answer, for a number of reasons. First, it's one more thing for the starters to thinking about, and as humans, mistakes are certain to be made (forgetting to flip on the green light). Second, depending on the position of the sun, they may not even be visible at some times of day. Third, to build on the comment of drivers having a lot to be looking at (traffic, guages, and so on), looking for this light could quite likely lead to more of the same, as some drivers will see and react to the light faster than others. It just adds another variable that's not necessary. The green flag is the only indicator that the race has begun, and all drivers know where it's located, and racing does not commence until it is seen by the driver.

Two suggestions I've seen in this thread sound most logical to me. They are:
1. Implementing a rule that you are to maintain pace speed until the line at S/F.
2. Adapting the rule employeed by the Gran Prix and Can Am group, that being no passing is allowed until after turn 3 or turn 1 (respectively, as these two groups vary in their rules). Pick a corner, either 1 or 2 or 3. It doesn't matter. The fact is, it allows for controlled acceleration, and it eliminates the "race to the green".
Implementing both of these rules would go a long way toward avoiding incidents such as this.
IMHO.
Guest 21-Jul-2005 11:30
If anyone has contact info for the owner of the #99 blue Camaro could you please forward it to weistim@yahoo.com. Thanks.
MGracer 21-Jul-2005 10:48
Just a quick question. I drive but have also worked "corners" at CART races (and F1 and leMans etc etc) - and I have never felt more concerned about start pile-ups than I do during "rolling" starts (did you see Adrian Fernandez have a CHAMP car land on his head at the Gold Coast Indy, Australia, a few years back?). We have very few classes of racing that have rolling starts here in Australia and have, I believe, consequently fewer start pileups like this one (I have seen some huge smashes into stalled cars on the grid - but those are a rarity and most are at low - relatively - speed). What are some of the reasons for the rolling start at this event? Clutch/drive-train concerns? Would a standing start be safer? Just a query.
Bill--disgusted 21-Jul-2005 08:42
Just to set the record straight "Steve", I was driving the yellow 77 & did not hit you at the claimed velocity, as I nearly got stopped, going no more than 30-40MPH when arriving at the pile; as evidence, the 81 car WAS able to stop 10' behind me. As the Firebird was allready there & imbedded in your trunk, I assume you are confused on the timeframe.
Steve 21-Jul-2005 05:27
Having no bias against any particular car or driver I can say that getting to the core reason of a crash like this is sometimes construed as finger pointing. So be it. The bottom line is find out what the root cause of the problem is and find a solution that everyone can live with. I was in the blue #6 Camaro in row starting in row 11 on both days. After Saturdays start with cars still in single file through turns 13-14 and coming around 15 everone was flat to the floor. I was late as I was waiting for cars to grid up 2 by 2 and there was none of that. I already had an uneasy feeling about the start procedure with no visibility to the starters stand and flat in 3rd going over the hill just hoping that it was green. Doesn't make alot of sense to me. You can't even pass before the start finish in Nascar or Nascar owned GA Cup so why not try this at R/A. I saw the car two rows up from my position and it had the big wiggle so I hit the brakes and went into a long skid in my lane. I did skid into the car in front of me an caused some damage but not that significant in light of what was to come. I got hit so hard by the yellow Vette that it broke my seat rail and sent me catapulting into the cage splitting my helmet. My car is a piece of junk but I know the risks of racing and that is one of them. It's just too bad that a car that has been a race car since it left the factory and raced at all the great tracks in the east is probably going to be made into beer cans soon. It seems that there are still some questions about what happened but if you believe what the Chief Steward said about what he saw then I guess we have a pretty good idea of what the cause of this was and from that there should be some solutions coming forward. As I said before the rules should be enforced to limit displacement, weight, tire/wheel size and correct brakes. The fans want to see historic cars, driven well with close racing. It's said that this event for group 6 was such a joke in 2005 for the fans and competitors.
Goggles Pizano 21-Jul-2005 04:52
I've raced at RA and I've been in the tower. They've got about 20 track cameras. I'm also sure there were plenty of in car cams out there. So where's the footage? Seems to me that a few choice video frames would solve an aweful lot of conjecture and finger pointing.
Rob F. 21-Jul-2005 03:58
Having been a starter at more than 14 road race courses for more than 3 dozen years, I have seldom witnessed incidents like the one that occurred Sunday. The last time was about 12 years or so ago, when a Formula Ford race with 70 some cars had a "no start" and rows 12 and beyond assumed there was a green flag and more than 18 cars piled up prior to the start finish line. Being alert to the flag at the start/finish line and responding appropriately, as opposed to assuming a start is paramont to having a clean start. I have never understood the apparent philosophy, in thnking that a race could be won before corner#1 on the very first lap. Road America is an outstanding road course that provides numerous opportunities for passing. So the issue is not one of getting in front and retaining that position as is the case most often in Formula 1. In the very few seconds it takes to traverse from station 15 at Road America to the start finish line, a very delicate balance must be achieved thru the combined team effort of the starter and the drivers that should provide an incident free start. A failure on the part of anyone in that "team" will obviously cause something other than a smooth and successful start. I am certain we all learned a difficult lesson from Sundays happenings, and will insure that we are all more alert to the potential disaster that could occur in the future. Thank God that no one was seriously hurt and we will all go on working and driving in the sport that we enjoy so much.
Johan Woerheide 21-Jul-2005 03:38
I have to chuckle at some of this. We have "guests" naming names of the drivers they don't like, probably because they are faster, or the cars they don't like, probably because they are better.
I see you "guests" , (only the ones doing the personal attacks), as practical jokers (Lauren.?). I will pay no attention to your posts. The drivers and cars you name are absolute favorites of the majority of us, the ones I go to the fence to watch. If you put your name on a post it is your rightful opinion, but if you attack someone from behind the cloke of anoninmity (how the ****do you spell that ?).....
Nor will I pay any attention to the posts that are based on the "Fat Old Rich Guys Driving Badly" premise, which is total bunk and again based on something other than trying to move forward as a group of like minded individuals.
Take all those meaningless nameless posts away from this board and we are left with a group of people that care about each other and want to improve the Vintage racing experience.
I have a solution to consider. As soon as I'm done considering it I might even tell someone about it.
Eric, we missed you at the Willis Races, "did you fall in the cracks" ?
Larry, I hope you are OK,as you are listed as an OK driver...
David, I can't believe with all the crap from the whole weekend, your car is the one that is famous.Sort of like the time you won corner worker's choice at the Mitty.It's always been one of my favorites. Way to go !
RA Staff, a simple thanks. Very impressive.
My take on the problem is a failure to prioritize. You can almost always say that when there is a problem. The priority is to participate first, socialize second, and finish third . I've made the mistake of finishing better than third a couple of times and I never got over it. My wifes been gone for 6 weeks, so I feel the need to either argue(no I don't!),fix something(like another drink), or roll over and go to sleep. When I return, I'd like to see some comraderie !
Jerome 21-Jul-2005 03:36
Have any of the actual participants caught up in the melee or behind them in the race posted here yet? Might be interesting to here their viewpoint..Race on boys and watch out for my slow AMC!
Jim Jones 21-Jul-2005 03:27
I was at the BRIC with a car in another race and did not witness the incident, I was busy. I have an opinion(s). How can a green flag be late? IMHO only if it appears after the lead cars have gone by. At the March HSR (Sebring) race they failed to throw the GTP flag for THREE laps. When it did show my favorite competitor was still on the back straight. The HSR requirement is to not race until your car passes the Start line. It is not entertaining when your car has to take two half straights and a horseshoe turn at pace speed while the lead GTP cars are at full strength. Kantrude and the lead cars should not be faulted for missing the red flag at station 1 & 2. If you have never started in a field like that, you can not appreciate how intense it is. With four miles of open track in front of them, why would they look for a red flag? Adding lights to the bridge is a reasonable approach but keep in mind that in this case, existing rules and good judgement were ignored. Speculation about the technical correctness of the cars is off point.
Jerome 70 T/A javelin 21-Jul-2005 03:01
Larry's is a great driver and exciting to watch..I know as I had fun watching him everytime he passed me in my mustang..Actually I think all of the participants are great! It was a Bloody unintentional accident...NO FINGER POINTING!!
Johan Woerheide 21-Jul-2005 02:27
I have to chuckle at some of this. We have "guests" naming names of the drivers they don't like, probably because they are faster, or the cars they don't like, probably because they are better.
I see you "guests" , (only the ones doing the personal attacks), as practical jokers (Lauren.?). I will pay no attention to your posts. The drivers and cars you name are absolute favorites of the majority of us, the ones I go to the fence to watch. If you put your name on a post it is your rightful opinion, but if you attack someone from behind the cloke of anoninmity (how the ****do you spell that ?).....
Nor will I pay any attention to the posts that are based on the "Fat Old Rich Guys Driving Badly" premise, which is total bunk and again based on something other than trying to move forward as a group of like minded individuals.
Take all those meaningless nameless posts away from this board and we are left with a group of people that care about each other and want to improve the Vintage racing experience.
I have a solution to consider. As soon as I'm done considering it I might even tell someone about it.
Eric, we missed you at the Willis Races, "did you fall in the cracks" ?
Larry, I hope you are OK,as you are listed as an OK driver...
David, I can't believe with all the crap from the whole weekend, your car is the one that is famous.Sort of like the time you won corner worker's choice at the Mitty.It's always been one of my favorites. Way to go !
RA Staff, a simple thanks. Very impressive.
My take on the problem is a failure to prioritize. You can almost always say that when there is a problem. The priority is to participate first, socialize second, and finish third . I've made the mistake of finishing better than third a couple of times and I never got over it. My wifes been gone for 6 weeks, so I feel the need to either argue(no I don't!),fix something(like another drink), or roll over and go to sleep. When I return, I'd like to see some comraderie !
Stoowy 21-Jul-2005 00:31
As a long time race fan and souvenir vendor, who was not at the event, I am glad that there were no serious injuries. From what I read here, there seems to be a lot of people blaming others, some of those writing almost incoherent statements. Please don't bring shame on our pastime, read your contribution, and if it is not worthy, don't send it. Let the investigation proceed calmly, professionally, and without prejudice. All of you are alive, not in a trauma unit, that is good news. Looking forward to seeing some of you at future events, Stewart
Longshot Six 21-Jul-2005 00:11
Well, here we are !!! We knew it would happen --- the Big Egos and the $$$ finally caught up with the inability to race safely because of the lack of experience. And, now they're trying to blame the starter ??? Let's face it the "Hysteric" organizations cater to the egos for the $$... What ever hapened to "stern" drivers' meetings, stiff fines, black flags, not to mention physicals or requirements for "time in competiton." There is no excuse for this happening at a wonderful and well designed track like RA; and the way that it happened -- if Dopey is sleepy or smiling for Blondie well that's what happens. Cliff Tufts must be spinning in his grave. And, crying about all of these wonderful vintage cars and all the $$$ If you can't loose it and walk away; don't race it. I love the sport and have the experience and licenses to prove that even someone at my age (60+) can compete; not to mention equally as much $$$ as these guys. But, I stay in the professional ranks and keep an eye on my rear view, give the benefit of the doubt to the "other guy," and realize what 2,000 lbs of metal at 130 mph can do (to F/U a start at 50 mph --- who's kidding who?)And, the day that I do not stay in shape, regard our sport as very serious, or loose the ability to keep myself or other racers safe --- I will polish my cars and wait for them to "vintageize," and sell them to Buffie and Tag. All you tea cup racers bring it on; get your act together and quit profiling --- keep our sport safe. Longshot Six
guest 20-Jul-2005 23:44
we all agree the starter controls the race but when the front row takes of so do the rest. When they hit the brakes last second do to no flag, we get a pile up due to everyone trying to keep up.
Julie Hanson 20-Jul-2005 23:22
I agree with Paul Wigton - the starter owns the field and absolutely no one has the right to assume that the green flag has been given until they can see it for themselves. This type of incident is not restricted to tracks where there is a "blockage" of view to the start stand - I have seen it happen where the whole field is on the straight and is lined up nice - the people somewhere in the back (any number of rows back) take the position that they must accelerate to keep up with the guys at the front (an assumption they make) and they run over people when their assumption is wrong. This is totally the responsibility of the driver, and the carnage is just sickening. You are definitely lucky that it was only vehicle damage.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 23:19
I want to express my admiration for the competence and professionalism of the marshals at RA. What these "wreckees" ought to be doing is to sending a bottle of the best scotch they can buy to those guys and gals. And then they should look carefully at themselves. All the finger pointing and band aid solutions to cover up personal responsibility are futile.
There have been some thoughtful posts from very experienced people that the basic rules of starts were not followed. Those rules have served well for years and they were violated. Chaos ensued. What is so difficult to understand? Look inside yourself. Did you begin racing before you clearly saw the green? Did you miss the red flag? Is your car prepared to the spirit of the rules? Is winning too important? Were you too agresive? Only you know, but for the sake of the sport be honest with yourself. It was the cumulative effect of many bad choices.

This is why I no longer attend the BRIC and prefer the May or September races...sanity is more apparent then. Even with a large X on the back of my car (not group 6)in the very first practice session while learning the track a few years ago, I was "banzai'd" a dozen times a lap. Whoever said we aren't "Pros" is right. A Pro would show Professional courtesy!
Guest 20-Jul-2005 23:09
I have raced against Larry Ligas in HSR..FAST car OK driver...WAYYYYYY to agressive...he drives like his livelihood depends on it..I would assume it does not.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 23:04
To that nice Gilmore fellow who says when he gets a little older and some more money he will start racing I hope he is wise enough to attend a nice driving/ racing school then do a few years of SCCA racing in a slower class before he decides to buy a high horsepower group 6 car and start racing!
Guest 20-Jul-2005 23:03
At first glance I thought " it's just group 6 doing what they always do". On Saturday they blacked flagged them, I believe during their qualifying race, so it was easy to dismiss. But then as I was walking to my pit area I heard a worker say something about the starter "wanting to tighten up the field".If that's true, I wonder if this is the result he was expecting. There are, as many here have said, numerous reasons why this took place. Some of these guys only race once a year and this is it. Some see the red mist and can't see a red flag. As a racer I can tell you it sometimes takes a station or 2 to see any flag when you have cars all around you. This accident was not caused by too much horsepower or any other mechanical discrepancy with the vintage ethos. It was caused by human errors any one of which, on another day, would not have been a problem.
I raced the Can Am race and I can see how it could have happened there as well. You cannot start 60 cars on that track without having everyone in place well before turn 14. In our race the same thing could have happened had there been more cars. The field needs to be 2X2 by turn 12. That is the pace cars responsibility. As someone said before, if you can't get that done in one lap then take two. This event and the people that run it are so focused on keeping to the schedule that they have lost sight of what needs to happen. It is so stressed for time it seems the people in charge will do anything to keep the schedule on time and certainly that is a contributing factor. Maybe there should be fewer cars racing and the bottom line should not be so much about money but the quality of the racing.I hope all concerned can look at this without pointing fingers and find a way to keep it from happening again.
DAVID HINTON 20-Jul-2005 23:03
From The Driver of the un vintage Jaguar XK 120...David Hinton
I was on the walkover bridge between turn 14 and start and finish.I was on the radio to My team mate Larry Ligas driver of the 1800lb(WE WISH) Blue Jaguar which started the race in P4.From my view point all i could see was the starter was not happy with the field and waited to waive the green flag once he did waive the flag the middle of the pack had ran in too the slowing front pack.It was a very sad ending to what is normally a great race. Will all these guys be back next year.....YES Will i be there to watch them, HELL YES!!!
It was a 2800 mile round trip for us from Florida to come to this event but still worth it,just to be a part of the best Vintage race weekend in the USA.(In my non vintage Jaguar XK 120)
Great Job was done by all the corner workers,RA staff and the emergencey workers.
guest 20-Jul-2005 22:56
To the person that wrote dear Mr Britzel. I think it is you that is on crack. You have quite a imagination. 10 to 12 wrecks last year. I dont think so. Maybe 10 cars off the course from a spin and or breakage but not wrecks. Get your facts right before you open your mouth. People who race know the risk they are taking. You may not come home with your car. No one pays for your racing but you. Its a shame for all the broken cars this weekend. But its a risk these drivers take. Im pretty sure they dont have race car insurance, if there is such a thing.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 22:48
Now that everyone has had a few days to calm down and read all of the comments on this page, I would like comment on the “let’s find a solution to the problem” statement that appears in several of the comments. If you do not know the cause of the problem, there can be no solution to the problem. I would like to try to discuss the cause of the accident in a non-confrontational and non-threatening manner.

There have been many valid comments about who did this and who did that and as you would suspect there are always contributing factors in any accident. As in any professional investigation, you need to start by determining the triggering event. The contributing factors in an accident are important, but they do not necessarily, by themselves, cause the accident.

In this accident, I believe the significant contributing factors were: 1) Cars out of position - not lined up one behind the other, 2) cars holding back - to be able to “get a run”, 3)cars spread out as they came up the hill to the start – normal for RA, 4)the back of the field catching the front row of the field, which was either running at a slower speed then anticipated and/or the front row checked up for some reason.

Now, if we were to hypothetically correct all of the contributing factors listed above and looked at the accident again, would there still have been an accident? I believe the answer is yes. I believe this because I believe the triggering event of this accident was a delayed green flag. I say this not to cast blame, but to try to analytically determine the triggering event of the accident.

RA has a very professional group in the control/starting tower and an isolated incident such as this does not mean everything is broken and/or is bad. RA has very successfully run races for over 50 years!

With that said, it would be my recommendation to RA and all tracks that have the possibility of high speed starts to spend time reviewing with the drivers during the driver’s meeting the starting procedures that will be utilized for the race weekend. Now you may say, “Well everyone knows how to start a race”, but I am afraid what we saw this last weekend proves that this is not the case.

I would be negligent if I did not commend all of the staff at RA for very professionally handling a very bad situation. The safety crew at RA is one of the best!
Group 7 Driver 20-Jul-2005 22:27
We all agree that this was a horrible accident for both drivers and cars. Lets stop pointing fingers at one another though. This was a combination of many things going on at once. People jumping the gun, the leaders not doing the pace speed, people not paying attention, back markers trying to get a run to the green, and "red mist." I run an SVRA group 7 Chevron, and yes I too have done the same things as these guys...WE ALL HAVE. This time however, it came back to bite everybody in the butt that was involved, and showed us all that we can't keep this up. I consider myself a vintage racer, yet I have my PRO liscense...and like the 21year old kid who said he would much rather race w/ vintage drivers, I AGREE. In no other series that I have competed with (Speedvision, Motorola, IMSA, GrandAm) do the drivers care as much about their cars and drivers as Vintage Racing. These guys are every bit as good as the "Pro's" (I'm not tlaking F1 or Cart here people). This is sad and unfortunant...but it brings everyones attention to subjects that needed to be addressed. So instead of all you critics that are trash talking one another and vintage racing in general....why dont you try and be a little more supportive and sympathetic. Remember...we put the show on for you.
Tim Gilmore 20-Jul-2005 22:22
I don't race but plan to as my children grow older and I have more time and money. I've been attending this event every year since 1993 and it is the highlight of my year (and I attend lots of car events). This is a sad time and I am very sorry to all those folks that incurred damage to their vehicles. A great friend from college days over 30 years ago owns and drives one of those smashed cars. I spent the weekend with him. I've come to know many of these drivers over the years and I just want to thank them for all the entertainment they've provided over the years. I'll continue to hop on a jet every year for the BRIC until I can't anymore, then I've instructed my wife to spread my ashes over the track while taking the $30 helicopter tour ride.
I cleared it with the pilot over the weekend. I'll let everyone else hash out the details, see you next year.
Jerome 1970 Javelin 20-Jul-2005 21:09
Eric Bretzel is partially right! It was a racing incident that could have and has happened to even the best drivers in the fastest and most advanced cars..i.e. F1, Champcar, Irl, ALMS....However I do agree that many of these cars have lost their balance as far as power to handling/ braking abilities...I have a car with "only" 425 horsepower and I have had Camaros and Mustangs with supposed 289-302 cid. pass me on the straights like I had 3 plug wires pulled...Hard to harness a Nextel Cup motor on Hoosier or Goodyear vintage tires I would think...But as they say its racing and I will continue to do it!
Guest 20-Jul-2005 21:00
Dear Eric Bretzel,
Are you smoking crack? As you stated, "There is nothing to fix, no one to blame." You must assume it was a lightning bolt sent down by God that caused the wreck. I raced with this group at the BRIC last summer and witnessed 10-12 wrecks in Group 6 alone. That's 20% damaged in a vintage race. My friend was wrecked by a blue #25 Cobra (yes that's him in the pictures), during the Friday morning PRACTICE session. The Cobra was trying to pass 3 cars at once in turn 3 and lost control sliding into my friend's nice Shelby. And they weren't even racing for God's sake. Don't tell me "their abilities exceed the level of race car they pilot." The proof is clearly evident. Many of these guys are extremely aggressive/dangerous and filthy rich drivers who have built cheater cars that go MUCH faster than the originals. Ever heard the saying "speed kills." Putting a 650 Hp motor in a car with small tires and brakes is a recipe for disaster. Especially with the egos many of these guys carry.

Also, what is "vintage" about Camaros and Mustangs running fiberglass fenders and doors, Willwood & Baer brakes, Jerrico transmissions, modern suspensions, dry sumps, aftermarket heads, and large stroker motors? It is billed as a "Vintage Race" isn't it? However, to many people, that just means "racing old cars."

I race in a group called CVAR, where the cars are rigorously checked for compliance to vintage rules. That means pumping motors to check size. We also have wrecks at our events. About 2-3 incidents for our Group 6 - THE ENTIRE 6 EVENT YEAR!

We also start our races with a green flag. HOWEVER, we have to wait until the green flag appears BEFORE racing. I din't used to think it was such a novel concept until now.
Paul Wigton 20-Jul-2005 20:55
I do not agree with adding warning lights: As an ex-racer, SCCA Nationally-licensed, as a driving instructor, and having seen/gone through hundreds of starts, this had nothing to do with a 'late green:" Folks, the starter OWNS you and as a driver it is YOUR responsibility to read the field and do the right thing. My guess is this was a case of too much money, too many people who *thought* they were racers (evidenced by the fact that at least FOUR cars raced, under full-course RED, to Turn 4...idiots!) and a HUGE ego-driven parade of badly-driven cars. For those who simply got caught in the melee, my heart goes out to you. For those who caused it? Well, the cost of fixing the toy MIGHT get your attention...and you ought to be required to fix the others to whom you caused damage. At a Vintage event, unless there's a Kevin Cogan-style mechanical failure, there is NO excuse for this stupidity.
The need is for better vetting of drivers at Vintage events and a LOT of expensive fines and/or license suspensions. Tragic and thank GOD no one got badly injured.
My 2 centavos worth!
Bill Dodson 20-Jul-2005 20:51
Has anyone posted video of the incident yet? If so, would someone kindly post a link please.
Regards,
Bill
Guest 20-Jul-2005 20:30
I was one of the drivers that was headed up the hill at increasing speed, of course thinking all along, that the cars in front of me were now on the "loud pedal".
Boy, did I get a surprise when I cressed the hill !! There was just no way I could stop
before "getting involved" in the melee.

Of all they thoughts and ideas posted to this site, I think one that makes "loads" of sense is to install WARGING LIGHTS (green, yellow, red)to the pedestrian cross-over bridge. Such lights would advise drivers headed up the hill (at speed) what's happening up front, and what's going on with regard to the "start". If a Red Light had all of a sudden began flashing at the initial contact of this accident, the starters could have immediatley warned those (such as myself)headed up the hill. Such warning lights could have prevented MUCH of this accident from occurring...... perhaps not all of it, but most of the "late damage", which was substantial, I feel could have been avoided.

This blind hill is a definite problem, especially for "starts", and warning lights would be an excellent and valuable investment, as compared to the cost of what occurred on Sunday.

Do you hear me Road America (George B.) ?

BT
James 20-Jul-2005 19:43
I didn't see the wreck, as I was in the shade near the north concession stand. But as I heard the "Red Flag!!!Red Flag!!!" and "It is going to take a while to clean up this mess", I started to move. Then the announcer's commands for people to get out of the pit lane increased my pace. As I crossed at the bridge, I took one photo, recognized the Firebird well out of position, and briskly walked to the media center. My wrist band gave me access to the roof. Who ever took those photos was standing real close to where I took mine. At least 15 cars in the wreck, with some others apparently damaged but getting thru it.

I wish I had a grid sheet, so I could identify which rows did the screw-up. I think the silver Jag of Kline's was in about row 6, as I remember thinking "3 Jags ahead of a Cobra!? Not in real life." as they started up the hill. The other 2 Jags were in rows in front of Kline.

The driver of the yellow Corvette was padlocked across from the McKee tent, and told one of my friends in that group he was stopped behind the Camaro when he got ran into....ending up looking up at a fuel cell. There appearently was a small oil fire in the blue Camaro under the starters stand. Otherwise, all the safety equipment successfully gave it their all.

It was amazing watching the safety and wrecker crews. Everybody did an outstanding job. But we would all rather see them unemployed on race weekends.

Mid-Ohio has their start line different from the finish line because of the short front straight. Maybe RA needs to move the Starters stand further down the track, thus getting more cars in some big grids on the straight. But this increases the risk of the according affect going into turn one. And this group were not the only ones with untidy starts. They just got caught in the worst possible way.

But I've seen 79 cars start at the June Sprints without incident. The responsibility for on track safety ultimately resides with those in the cars.

James
Rick Hayden form LA 20-Jul-2005 19:25
Let's blame God, and Clif Tufte. (one-in-the-same to some !) Racing since '63, RA seat time and past member of the Motor racing Safety Society, this captures my full attention. God made that hill, and Clif (MHSRIP) chose it as the beginning of his front straight and that is what we have to live with at RA. I like Dick kantrud's threads - I know him to be a wise Steward and fierce competitor from my Lo'L days, and even tho he's got to be a gazillion years old by now, George should tap him for Steward duties IMO. The light and camera ideas are good, and slaving the light to another halfway up the hill might help. David Hueppchen, local RA hotshoe, was talking with me yesterday and he mentioned the starting cone idea, used in his experience on bull rings to great effect. It solves the physics dilemma of longer acceleration runs for the guys further back and will string out fields from the 'get-go.' Full disclosure of starting procedure to all, at driver's meetings, is essential (re: the 50 mph pace told only to the front row thread.) I've missed standing starts for decades, and now I will miss the massed starts of the groundpounders, for the time has come to let our wimminfoke think they are taming us once again, as they have thought for centuries, and come back a notch in Vintage Racing Starting Protocol. Rick Hayden from LA.
63Corvette 20-Jul-2005 19:24
I have raced a Corvette with SVRA for more than 25 years, and I've never seen anything like this accident. I also race with Steve Earle's General Racing Group and HMSA. I do NOT race with HSR, nor do I intend to race in events which tolerate the driving illustrated in this event. Sorry, it's not the fast cars, it's the driver, stupid! I welcome the fact that certain sanctioning organizations have different rules, so that the crazies can go race with them, and I don't have to. No one starts a race to finish last, but I don't HAVE to win. I have loads of fun, and am privileged to race with wonderful people who are great sportsmen (and women) as well as great drivers. I will go on record as saying here that if any of my competitors ever feel that they HAVE to beat me so badly as to cause an accident trying to get by me, if they will come by my paddock prior to the race and tell me their car number, I will gladly wave them by when I see them come up behind me.

Garrett Waddell
guest 20-Jul-2005 19:22
I don't recall the ITA Miata drivers owning such nice cars.
Eric Bretzel 20-Jul-2005 19:02
Having read all the posted theories and the "good" or "bad" about vintage racing and vintage racing drivers, I can't help but feel that most miss the point. Racing is Racing! Regardless of the sanctioning body or venue, it's a race. Ultimately the responsibility rests with the driver, not horsepower or upgrades, and I'm sure there are several drivers that will question their actions at that start for a long time. I missed this years race (thank you tire rules) but have driven my blue Porsche 911 for at least 10 years in this group. This is as good a group of drivers that exist in racing, period. I count many as my friends and their abilities exceed the level of race car they pilot. There is certainly some human error and circumstances that occured at the wrong time but it is still someting that can happen in any race. There is nothing to fix, no one to blame just time to give thanks that the systems worked and no one was seriously injured. All those drivers will be back and the "race" is on to see who can fix their car first.
Sim 20-Jul-2005 18:37
Vintage Racing started so old race car drivers could race their old (real) race cars. It's come a long was since then, not all for the better. Perhaps the motto for vintage racing should be: " leave your egos and wallets at home".
guest 20-Jul-2005 18:30
For clarification, the "insurance" I referred to was event insurance, not car insurance. One serious accident like this one can greatly affect the premium asked by the insurer and the coverage demanded by the race facility.

- Gregory W. Smith, ODR-SCCA RE
Guest 20-Jul-2005 18:12
You can see the roll bar and small protion of the right reaf fender in Jpg 36 abd 37.
Dale 20-Jul-2005 17:46
As a past road racer (24 hrs Daytona, Sebring, RA, Mid Ohio, IRP, Talladega etc) having started towards the back a few times it is difficult to catch up to the front runners for the start. I almost rear ended a car in turn 4 of Daytona trying to catch up. This taught me a great lesson. But we all have seen what happens even at the Indy 500 when an entire field messes up on the start. I hope to begn racing with you people once more in the vintage series, and hope that nothing like this will happen again. I absolutely love Road America. I took my very first drivers school there in a Camaro. I know the powers to be will fix this.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 17:43
As a spectator at RA since 1964, this is a big disappointment. Racing is a high risk sport. Safety is so good that maybe people think it is not. What if this wreck had not happened? My feeling was that the worst example of a Vintage race car was the Red Jaguar XK120. I am familiar with this type of car and there is no way that one like this ever existed back then. The cars should remain Vintage. I was at entry to 5. My attitude is push away the wrecks and let the rest race. I bet if it rained, RA would stop the race.
The Can Am cars were worth the trip. I guess since they were unlimited originally, they just keep getting better! I will stop going to Vintage and go to 'Real' races from now on.
Good news that it is still safe.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 17:31
If you have something to say atleast have the courtesy to post your name.

Elmer Fudd
Guest 20-Jul-2005 17:08
Sorry, the yellow Camaro is not underneath - that's a Corvette. The Camaro made it back to the paddock on all four wheels with maybe a bit of body damage from hitting the black corvette. It didn't get demolished like the cars behind it did.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 17:06
Sorry, that's not the yellow Camaro under there - it's a Corvette. The yellow Camaro being talked about is not in the pictures because it didn't get demolished! It was still running and on four wheels - maybe a little damage to the body.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 17:00
You can see the roll bar and small protion of the right reaf fender in Jpg 36 abd 37.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 16:42
Someone referred to a yellow Cum-arrow, but I don't see it in any of the photos.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 16:34
I have followed this string of comments with great interest but it has taken me until now to put my emotions in check enough to speak my mind. I happened to have just stepped up onto the pit wall directly across from start/finish as the green flag was given for this race. I can only describe what I witnessed as HORRIFYING! It is only by the grace of God that nobody was killed. As to all the finger pointing, it's just a waste of time and emotion. A solution needs to be determined in order for such an incident not to be repeated. As a competitor in the Group 7 Can-Am race I can vouch for how valuable our rule of "no passing until after turn 1" is. If you're faster than the person in front of you, you'll find a way by. What's the fun in blasting by somebody on the straightaway anyway? Isn't everybody familiar with the saying, "races aren't won in the first turn, but they can darn well can be lost there"?

As to what the family members of the competitors involved in this melee must have gone through, I can only imagine. I was beside myself having only had a couple of my friends competing in this race, fortunately both escaped being collected in the incident. I wish all those that did sustain injuries, physically or psychologically, a rapid recovery!!

I ask that we all take responsibility for our actions on the track from this point on. Our sport can't afford to take further black eyes like this, and it doesn't deserve it!
Bill Dodson 20-Jul-2005 16:27
Has anyone posted video of the incident yet? If so, would someone kindly post a link please.
Regards,
Bill
Guest 20-Jul-2005 15:48
The last post to this forum mentioned insurance rates. Do people actually insure their cars for on-track excursions? If so this is a big surprise to me. As far as horsepower wars I think that is why we have HSR and SVRA. One for period correctness for purists and one for vintage "appearing" cars with modern updates and no previous history. I have been to many vintage events nationwide and worldwide and I have seen hard wheel to wheel racing in all of them with lots of "trading paint". This incident just happened to be a misfortunate event with an accordion effect.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 15:04
First, let me say that I used to race B Production Corvettes long before they became "vintage". I'm sorry to see so many wonderful cars damaged, but glad that no one was seriously hurt (except in the wallet for sure). I recently had the opportunity to inspect a friend's "vintage" 1965 B Production Corvette racer. The only thing "vintage" on this racer was the fiberglas body, ladder frame, steering gear, and the front/rear spindles. Everything else was equivalent to the powertrain/drivetrain found in current GT1 or Trans-Am racers. IMHO, the cars have ceased being the stars in some vintage races, and the emphasis has become more horsepower to win. I think that allowing 650 HP in vintage cars that raced originally with 425 HP is asking for trouble.

I admire SVRA for their self-policing of the ranks, but have decided that at 58, I don't want to be "flying in close order formation" with individuals with little experience in fender to fender racing with more horsepower under their right foot than they can control. The majority of the indivuals that I have met at recent vintage races are NOT racers despite some claims to the contrary. The majority are well past their 30th birthday and now have the financial resources to acquire the toys they want. Not all, but a critical few, seem to pursue the god of horsepower (forgetting that handling & driver skill are often the final determinants in who's first) in their quest to win.

If vintage racing is to continue without incurring ridiculous insurance rates, I think that the various sanctioning bodies need to control the proliferation of HP and start enforcing speed limits during the race. Again, IMHO if the track speed limit for Group 6 is set at 120 MPH and you're clocked by radar at 130 MPH on the straight, you get black flagged for that race. Do it twice, and 13/13 rule kicks in.

I offer these opinions for your consideration. Clearly, something needs to be done to avoid another fiasco such as the one witnessed at the BRIC 2005 event.

- Gregory W. Smith, ODR-SCCA RE
Guest 20-Jul-2005 14:57
Many people obviously have differing opinions about vintage racing and it's purpose, but they are just that...OPINIONS. That's the great thing about vintage racing. If you want to go out and race hard with other fellow drivers, you can do that. If you just want to get out there and enjoy driving your car around the track at 75%, you can do that as well. The only catch is that you must do SAFELY. I am a Group 6 driver and I am a very competitive person. My first objective is to be safe, my second objective is to have fun, and my third objective is to perform to the best of my abilities and hopefully win the race. I think that if all Group 6 drivers had their priorities in this order, it would be a much cleaner, safer group to race with.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 13:24
History in the un-making. I have "been there and seen that" with a CF at the botched start of an SVRA Group 6 at RA. I think most of the cars in the scene of distruction have been there, too, or at least heard about it. Group 6 is the best AND worst group in Vintage. Does anyone in Group 6 remember Walt jumping on the wall of the pits at WGI and reaming every driver out about the lack of "vintage" attitude in that group a few years ago? This carnage is not news, just another example of "red mist" in tight helmets, nothing new, especially in Group 6. If the drivers and owners can justify their losses, so be it. It's good to see people post objections, but it's up to the drivers/owners to protect the car's history if that is what they hang their hats on, otherwise, get a "dispo-a-car" and run with another organization. How dare I say this? I got a "helicopter ride I don't remember" from a crash in a Brian Redman race at WGI a few years ago. My fault, single car incident, likely from doing 11/10ths racing a faster car three corners from the checker, but I wasted an 8 year restoration of a nice car that had been a successful racer all it's life and kissed off at least $50K doing so. Fun? NOT!
v-pirate 20-Jul-2005 10:56
dos this cars use Michelin Tyres??? Then this is the reason that only 6 Formula 1 cars startet in Indy ths Year.
Guest 20-Jul-2005 09:12
Mei müssts ihr ois so kaputt macha !!! Deppen
Guest 20-Jul-2005 04:13
Shens!!! its chopped
Guest 20-Jul-2005 03:00
I don't think this is a good direction for this forum to take with all the finger pointing and accusations. Hey this is racing...even if its vintage racing...its not like you are out in the garden planting tulips...maybe someone or some people made an error..it was non-intentional I am sure...
Guest 20-Jul-2005 02:04
Looks like the FUBAR National all over again, except this time it appears it was the drivers' fault, not the starters. Bruce Lindstrand, you know what I mean!
Guest 20-Jul-2005 00:31
Atb Mid Ohio in June, I was driven in to at the first corner after the green flag. Later, a corvette of '60's vintage chopped my nose. I was followinh him for 2 laps, closed him after the straight, follwed behind him, was waving at him, moving side to side so he could see me. He missed the apex at 9, 10a, and 10b. I out braked him into 11 and had the corner. Instinct said to hit the brakes. I put it on its nose and he still ran over my front end. I caught him in the Carousel and forced him wide and made him stand on his brakes. Once past, I never saw him. The point is that I was 4-5 seconds a lap faster, he was given the bluye flag for two laps and still he was unsafe to race with...of course he stated he couldn't see my S2.
Fellow Vintage and SCCA Racer 19-Jul-2005 23:50
Fingers need to stop being pointed. It was a combination of things. That's why it's called RACING. This is a sad and unfortunant event in our sport, and nobody likes to see this happen...especially to these cars. But again that's why it's called racing, and everyone whom participates knows this. My father has wrecked sports-racers and prototypes a few times...all of which were due to someone elses oil. Situations like this are sad and angering...but you cannot point fingers. Now, I'm only 21, but I race both SCCA and SVRA, and have run vintage Formulia Atlantics, 2L sports racers, and group 8 production cars in SVRA (which are almost as bad as group 6)...and in no other series in my opinion are drivers more careful and respectful of their cars, fellow racers and surroundings, than in vintage racing. As far as me being young and hearing people bash vintage racers for being "amatures," that can't be further from the truth. Half of the vintage racers that race are either ex-pros, or have been driving similar, if not the same car for the past 20-30 years. YES, group 6 is a little out of hand in my opinion, but as sad as it is...it might finally alert serious attention to group 6, that these cars need to be regulated....in some way or another. Lets stop finger pointing and bashing one driver/car or another for this accidend, because I personally would much rather race with the vintage racers than SCCA racers anyday. Everyone needs to understand that this is racing(although extremely sad)....and sometimes stupid and unnecessary things happen in racing. Everyone who was involved needs to be thankful that they are alive and kicking, because cars can be brought back to life, people can't.
guest 19-Jul-2005 23:49
I saw the accident on Sat. in corner 5. The yellow camaro had the outside line and the black vette had the inside line. The black vette lost control of his car and slid into the yellows line. Really no one to blame as I can see, but im not a race car driver. Also no one was doing 50 at the start. Especially the front row, if so why stand on the brakes before the flag. Everyone is so quick to blame who did what. Lets find a solution to solve this from ever happening again. I as a fan hate to see cars wrecked. If I wanted to see that I can stay home and watch NASCAR and save a lot of money. I go to the bric to see fast old cars race hard. If people just want to watch old cars go to California next month. The race winners are probably already picked.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 23:17
I'm a vintage racer. I raced at the BRIC a few years ago and at the Walter Mitty recently. I won't race again in an HSR event because of the high tolerance for incidents and aggressive driving. The BRIC I enjoyed for the one time, but I was overwhelmed in a vintage prepared small-bore car and I won't likely return.

My "home" organization will send someone home if there is metal to metal contact. If fault cannot be ascribed (or admitted) BOTH cars go home. Someone will likely also go on probation. A short weekend with a long tow goes a long way to governing attitudes.

If these rules had been followed at the BRIC that yellow Camaro would have been on a trailer on Saturday and there would not have been an accident on Sunday, assuming the previous post is accurate.
Calvin 19-Jul-2005 22:56
Now that a little time has passed and tempers have cooled, maybe all drivers, not only racers, should look at this as a learning experience. Everyone who was involved, what could each of you done differently, and how will you apply this in the future? Maybe when I'm driving home today, I'll leave just a little more space between myself and the car in front of me. Even on the highway, people check up occasionally, and i'll definitely treat blind approaches with more respect. the most terrible thing that could happen from this event is if we don't learn from it.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 22:48
yep, it takes a good driver & probably 700 to 750 hp. therein lies much of the problem!
Not to mention brakes that never existed when the cars were built, etc., etc. etc......
Guest 19-Jul-2005 22:24
group 6 idiot...Are you aware the guy in the red/white roadster has been racing at R/A for almost 30 years? do you know what it takes to run a 2:27 on a greasy track after two laps?? It`s takes SKIL not cubic money. Saturdays event was for time NOT finish so the two laps he ran was to scuff in a $700 set of new tires. I believe he races (and wins) for the enjoyment of his wife and kids and couldn`t care less about you as you see he pays to race while you pay to watch. As for that yellow Camaro he jumped the start (as usual) this time he moved out of line and hit someone.....
Guest 19-Jul-2005 22:19
Maybe they should be professional, like, say, Dale Earnhart?
Dick Kantrud 19-Jul-2005 22:16
A few more comments from p2. Its a long track, we had a big field of cars. The pace car moved out when the first cars were released from the false grid. This probably puts the field through sta.3 by the time the last cars even get on the track. The cars string out even more as they warm their brakes & tires. Too far, I'm sure for the later rows to catch up at any speed. Having the pace car collect the cars further down the track before starting the pace lap would help. Many of the pro races used to have 2 pace laps,
one to warm everything up, one to collect the cars and give a nice bunched up field for photo ops. The pace car could stop down on the back side for a minute to collect the field if we don't have time for two laps (better tell all the drivers about it though).
"Low eyes" are not the problem, you are driving blind till you crest the hill. The mindset is to go so the people up front don't get even further ahead and so everyone from the back doesn't blow by you - not the way it should be but thats the way it is. I think rather than move the start line further down a green/yellow/red light and one more video camera should be on the bridge at the top of the hill with the lights controlled by the starter. Then all can start at the same time and the whole field can be told "it will be a 50mph start and anyone getting out of line before the start will be penalized" (and they will be on tape). Mike Donahue on the pole was not the problem, he held the 50mph speed all the way up and over the hill till the green came out. I saw him a number of times during practice (usually when he was passing me) I didn't see any agressive driving, he's just fast. I think the cause was a number of drivers anticipating that we would start to accelerate and our holding 50mph forcing them to slow down or even brake causing an accordian effect terrible crash. Finally to the flag person on sta.2 the race was only about5 seconds old, if the flag had come out before we got to sta.1 I/we would have seen it. It apparently came out about the time we got there. I was busy not hitting the car in front of me, watching the guy behind me as well as the guy trying to pass on the outside.Sta.3 was the first one in my normal line of sight and I started to slow right away while checking to be sure I wasn't going to be whacked in the back (might have done better but did get stopped by 3 and then crawled up to a bit of shade).
Race Fan 19-Jul-2005 21:45
I think everyone that "competes" or pretends to be a race car driver in the so-called vintage series is wasting valuable resources and money. All you dreamers can park these ridiculas cars because almost all of them are not vintage or anywhere near original. Do your sport a favor and race in a competitive series and leave these cars to the showroom floor or museum. By "competing" in this crap you are hurting the very sport you are supposedly paying a tribute to. Having a bunch of amateurs on the track in these high powered cars is crazy and going to kill someone very soon. And I bet while all you dreamers stroke yourselves around the track you make race car sounds in your helmet. I also bet that when you get home you tell your friends that you were actually "racing" last weekend. Get a modern race car and support your sport and stop masterbating all over the "golden years". You know who you are. The 60's are over.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 21:44
I've already defended one driver, I guess I'll defend another! That red and white Corvette you speak about had a new engine that developed an oil leak! Trust me he would haved loved to get as much track time as he could, but rather than oiling down a race track, he pulled off as soon as he realized he had a problem. He returned to the track when he thought the problem was completely solved! He may be one of the few "budget racers" out there, but I respect him for that! He doesn't pay a hundred grand a year for someone else to maintain his car, and I respect him for that! His hands and T-shirt might be dirty because he works on his own car, while others "Mingle", and I respect him for that! He obeyed the rules and came out unscathed, good for him!! At least he was observant enough to see what was happening in front of him and stayed out of trouble!
Group 6 Fan 19-Jul-2005 21:24
The Contact started with the Yellow Camaro in the third row. He moved to his right and hit the Black Corvette (the same one he rear ended in corner 5 the day before)! He had nowhere to go! If it was not for this contact everyone would of probably made it through okay. The YELLOW CAMARO had absolutly nowhere to go when the front two rows slowed up. It was either rear-end the car in front of him or move over and take the chance of hitting the car beside him. This is "too aggressive" and it caused alot of hurt and damage. There is in-car footage that proves this, just ask Dick Mooney, he had a front row seat and it’s on tape. All the damage that came after this contact was a DIRECT RESULT of this overly aggressive driving. Also, this is vintage racing, these guys are supposed to be here because they love to drive their cars, not to win races. If you attend the whole weekend and only run your (red and white corvette convertible) only two laps on Saturday just to get in the race on Sunday, you are out on the track for the wrong reasons. Nobody cares if you win, NOBODY! Fans love to see the cars on the track for every session everyday, not for two laps one day just to scrub up some tires for the race. If you have this attitude you should not be at the track. If you can't afford it or have a problem spending the money, keep it home and save up for a full weekend and run as much as possible. Most of these guys have a passion for driving their cars, not for winning races. If you have a passion for winning, SCCA is for you. Everyone wants to do well but some are out on the track for the wrong reasons. This incident did not happen because of a late green flag, it happened because someone near the front thought they were getting prize money if they won the race. If I were a driver that got caught up in this mess I would point fingers, it needs to be done to make Group 6 safer!
Guest 19-Jul-2005 21:06
To the guest who commented that Mike Donohue is a over aggressive driver. He is an agressive driver, driving one of the best prepared cars on the track. I'd rather run next to him than next to a timid driver with a poorly prepped car! As for Mid-Ohio, Mike received a minimum required suspension for being involved in an accident with another car. The other driver received a year suspension! Who do you think the aggressive driver was in that incident? Also in Mike's defense you don't turn lap times 3 seconds faster than the second place car without being a damn good driver! Mike was holding 55 mph as he was told until the green flag was finally shown, by then it was too late, rows three through ??? were coming up the hill around 120 plus, guessing that the green flag had been given.
Doug 19-Jul-2005 20:51
Looking forward, and I haven't been able to read all of the comments, someone mentioned adopting starting rules so here is a suggestion.

In a pro series I competed in, we used an acceleration cone which was a distance prior to the starters stand (maybe 100 feet or so). NO vehicles were to accelerate until they reached that cone on the initial double file start. Of course all vehicles were to be in their starting positions well before that point and moving at the pace car speed. The affect on cars starting the race in this manner was to AVOID having the last cars accelerating at the same time as the lead cars at the drop of the green and therefore compressing into the first turn as the cars with a longer acceleration run caught the cars with a shorter acceleration run. Rather, the desired affect was to start accelerating at the same point on the track allowing the cars to have equal distances to accelerate prior to the first turn.

Obviously, in order for this to work, all cars must be bunched up well before the final turn leading to the starters stand and it sounds like that didn't happen here. But this is one way to reign in those overagressive drivers at the start of a race.
Carlos 19-Jul-2005 20:24
One look at these crash photos and you quickly understand why it is so important to complete a professional road racing school program before taking to the track. I suspect that the crash was the result of drivers having what we call "Low Eyes", the act of not looking far enough ahead to anticipate something like this. Others claimed they never saw the waiving warning flags, again, the probable result of "Low Eyes". If you're thinking of driving anything on the race track, visit our website first at www.Racingschools.com and get the expert instruction you need before putting your life and the life of others in jeopardy. Glad everyone walked away (I bet the driver's wives won't be too happy)
Guest 19-Jul-2005 19:35
Accident investigations almost always conclude that given a set of cascading circumstances, an accident is anything but chance; it becomes inevitable. Reading through these posts and reading between the lines, it looks like this one was as well.

There's no sense pointing fingers; everyone was caught up in events in which they only played a small part. Better to analyze, understand, and then "break the chain" that caused the incident.

I'm glad everyone is OK.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 19:26
What a shame. It was amazing that no one was more badly hurt. When I came onto the scene, I couldn't believe my eyes. It felt like walking onto a staged movie set.

Two comments. First, A great job was done by the R/A safety team, as always. I was proud to be working the clean up with them. The whole mess was out of the way and the track was open to touring in 1 hour. If only our highway crews could move so quickly with a single car crash.

Second comment, to the P2 driver who claimed not to see the red before turn three; I don't see how you could have missed it. I was holding out, open, big, and rocking it at station two before you even rounded turn 1. Some of the other 7 front runners in your pack even waved to me as they blasted by at full throttle. Red means stop, my friend. If you can't stop safely at that first flag you see, put your hand up to signal the cars behind that you're slowing, and LIFT. When you see red, the race is over. Continuing to mash the pedal serves no purpose, and can be very hazardous to you, your fellow drivers and my fellow workers.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 19:09
Mike Donohue has a reputation of being an overly aggressive driver. I believe that he was one of the Group 6 competitors thrown out on Saturday at SVRA Mid-Ohio. A late green does not help, but the front 3 rows should have been able to prevent this from happening. Maybe it was just a coincidence that Donohue was on the pole, but I doubt it.
ron tebo 19-Jul-2005 18:39
What a fabulous series of pictures.... I especially like the one of Phil Hill, my all-time HERO!!!
Guest 19-Jul-2005 17:54
Group 6 is out of control. Sure some can argue that Jericos might be cheaper in the long run than a T10, but thats not what these cars ran in the 60's and 70's. Why does everyone have magnesium bellhousings? Are reverse-mount starters really necessary? One of the front runners is even running carbon fiber brakes! (Very cool on a GT3 Porsche but rediculous on a group six race car). Some things may need to be modified in the interest of safety, such as roll cages and racing seats, but the rest should be left alone to maintain or regain the integrity of vintage racing. Lets leave the the 750 hp cup motors and 540 ci big blockes out of vintage racing and get back to having more fun with less money.
guest 19-Jul-2005 17:26
I was one of the pace car drivers at this event. Although I was not driving the pace car for this race, let me assure you that race control was very clear and consistent with their instructions during all races to slow the pace down at corner 12 and allow the groups to form up for the start. After the pace car is in pit lane, it is up to the front row cars to maintain speed and position until the green flag drops. All following cars should not be moving out of position until they SEE the green flag.
The ultimate responsibility for a safe start rests with the drivers. I have been racing in SCCA events for 34 years and continue to do so. I have never seen anything like this before and hope I never do again.
Kudos go out to the Road America safety team and everyone involved in handling a serious situation so smoothly and professionally.
Mike Froh
Guest 19-Jul-2005 17:19
New Tech meets Old Tech....
Years ago none of us vintage drivers had radio sets in the cars listening to our crew, standing at the top of the hill tell us that the track was GREEN even while we were half way back to Turn 14.

The guilt spreads thickly over many.
Tom
Dick Kantrud 19-Jul-2005 17:18
Well, I need to add my comments as well. I'm Dick Kantrud and I was in P.2 next to Mike Donahue in P.1. Before the race we were told in no uncertain terms to maintain 50 mph at the start and that is exactly what we did. The pace lap was a little faster at first with everyone warming tires & brakes till we got about to sta. 11. The pace car then slowed up to collect the field as best he could. This was well below 50mph, I had to drop down to 1st gear and then even go in and out of neutral as it was too slow for 1st. The pace car sped back up to about 50 around sta. 13 and maintained that speed. He slowed a bit when when he exited the track, Donahue did the same and then went back to about 50 (4200rpm in 2nd gear in my car). Thats what we were doing coming up over the hill and we absolutely did not vary till the green came out - yes it did, no doubt at all. We were watched carefully by track management and this was confirmed by George B. who said the front row was perfect at the driver's meeting. I don't know who told the operating steward who said we admitted to 5000rpm in 3rd gear but that is crazy, must be mixed up with one of the cars further back. Its possible some coming up the hill were doing that. A friend of mine was watching from the concession stand by the hill and said cars were 4 abreast before the flagstand (and probably before the green). I was told some of the cars in rows 2 - 5 anticipated the green and then had to slow down because we didn't speed up. I didn't see the red till sta.3, slowed way down watching mirrors. Stopped a little late then coasted up to some shade. The rules do not allow people to start before the green whether you can see the flagstand or not. I am going to suggest green, yellow and red lights on the bridge at the top of the hill (a tv camera too)to be operated by the starter. I've been a driver since 1964 and was an SCCA Steward for about 28 years as well. This is the worst I have ever seen with one happy exception. Thanks to a great job by the safety crew and good car and driver safety equipment there were apparently no serious injuries. Still a very sad day for all of us, particularly the ones
with wrecked cars.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 17:10
I think the person on pole should be partially at blame for this whole mess. When the pace car pulls in, it's the pole sitters responsibilty to keep the pack tight and in formation. I make sure I do this each time I am on pole. This is tragic, good thing everyone is ok. Too bad for the cars, especially the ones with history. Is there a video of this on any website? I'd be curious to see how it looked live.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 17:02
Everyone was very very lucky, especially us behind the disaster. I was the second or third uninjured car to reach the scene and couldn't beleive my eyes. I was trying to get stopped without anyone hitting me and was lucky (I did see the red at the top of the hill,there should be a lite at that bridge). I don't know what happened at the start, but I know that we were spread out too far and were at full racing coming thru 14 as the lead pack was cresting the hill. I can only guess what happened, but I do know that the start is controlled by the flag starter and the pole car. I'm not sure which one or both screwed up. I only know I'm sure lucky I was in 20 plus starting position. I only hope is everyone involved heals quickly and we can get back to common sense racing and leave our ego's at home.
We're not NASCAR
Don S
Guest 19-Jul-2005 16:45
Let's get off our high horse about "cheater cars" or "bad drivers". The rules are wide open, the spectators want to see really fast cars! Most of these guys (especially the front runners) probably have more seat time than most SCCA pro drivers. Secondly I have found the maturity of the drivers in Vintage racing keeps them from driving recklessly.
The few that are reckless are usually suspended enough times that they quit vintage racing. This was probably inevitable in that the drivers coming up the hill can only anticipate that the green flag was given. I heard on the PA system about a new spectator bridge, and who sponsored it. That is a nice improvement, but how about a "signal light" system over the track so the drivers coming up the hill know if the flag was given, or not given. I'm sure paying for a signal light system would be cheap compared to fixing all those beautiful cars!
Dave Rauch 19-Jul-2005 16:33
As a polesitter many times- I always brought the field up toward the start in a holding rpm in a favorable gear- usually pretty slow- so the field could all bunch up- then when the flag DROPPED- would accellerate and try to beat everyone into the first corner that way the accordian effect would stretch out the field and that kind of thing would not happen- I think the steward of the meet should counsel the polesitter every time oon the correct procedure- I have been back in the pack many times too on the start- and the polesitters start accelerating way too soon before the flag drops and are gone before the rest of the field even makes the last turn before start\finish! Formula for disaster- and so it happened- Dave Rauch
Guest 19-Jul-2005 16:27
I feel terrible for those guys. I think about the work I've put into my car and... I do want to comment on the "cheater cars" being the problem. I run a "cheater" AS car on the west coast. It has a Jerico transmission and a modern bowtie block 358 with off the shelf 18 degree heads and shaft rockers. I have seen the dyno numbers for my car and for similar strictly compliant cars (302s with standard rockers and iron heads)and I know I make similar power. However, my motor cost appoximately $10,000 and will live for more than 50 hours. I have watched the "legal" $35,000 302s go up in smoke after 15 hours. My "cheater" is for a durability and cost saving stand point and I can tell you that my lap times are consistent with guys in "legal" cars. What I am getting at is that the car isn't the problem, it is the driver. I've never hit anyone with my "cheater car" because I don't want to fix crash damage and I don't want got get the 13/13 or the "death penalty".
guest 19-Jul-2005 16:21
And people wonder why us old race car fans call this series "rich guys driving poorly" Yes, I know that's a generalization and doesn't apply to all the drivers by any means, but this "racing incident" should never have happened. A previous comment was absolutely spot-on; we come to see the cars themselves and rekindle fond memories from past races, not to see piles of junk that used to be incredible machines.
guest 19-Jul-2005 15:39
the front row guys should be shot. they have the biggest engines in the field and they are drag racing up the hill before the flag, of course everyone else is going to try and catch up. You don't give her dog before u see green, plain and simple. and you definetly don't stab the breaks when u realize, hey they might now throw it. What complete morons
Driver Spouse 19-Jul-2005 15:08
As a spouse of one of the drivers caught up in the "big one", I am thankful that the safety equipment worked! No fuel cells exploded, no roll bars gave way and the HANS devices did their job. There were some injuries, none life threatening, a lot of bruises, headaches and sore muscles. The bigger hurt is the cars that can't be replaced or the cost of repair, the morale of the drivers, and the image cast on the sport of Vintage Racing. I wonder about the requirements to drive in these races. Why not more driving school requirements, even refresher courses? Why not a better standard for driver meetings and the required attendance? Why does something bad always have to happen before those in charge realize that changes need to be made and standards need to be toughened so that this does not happen again? Next time the drivers may not be so lucky.
disgusted 19-Jul-2005 14:58
As a 40 year SCCA/vintage competitor who got caught up in this fiasco & ended up with a wrecked car(s), I say its time to stop pointing fingers & look for answers. This event has long turned into "formula libre" as THERE ARE NO RULES; c'mon 1800 lb Jaguars?, Corvettes at 183 mph thru the traps? no brake or transmission restrictions? Little or no experience for entry necessary? Ridiculous! Worse than HSR & all the crazed cheater PCA Porsches. Have someone who knows these cars, & knows how to police & run, at least this group, do so. The organisers have to take charge & get it under control. At SVRA Mid Ohio, after a couple guys were thrown out for agressive driving in the Sat. qualifying race, the Sun. race became suddenly much calmer, with everybody staying well away from everybody else. Hopefully, this was the wake up call that will get us to clean safe racing.......By the way, the medical & various other safety crews (SCCA) DID do a remarkably efficient & professional job.
Steve 19-Jul-2005 14:58
Why is it that the cheater cars are usually with the most aggressive drivers who on many occassions don't have either the skill set or the good judgement to drive these cars? I was in the #6 camaro and all I can say is the way the start is done at RA is a recipe for disaster. I don't really care how long you have been doing it that way at Road America something needs to be changed. With the cars and attitudes that prevail it will probably happen again. How about enforcing some basic rules like, displacement, tire/wheel size, brakes, trans and weight. The safety crews did such an excellent job of taking care of those who need some help and I thank them. I did talk to Bruce Levin a couple of times yesterday and he is just sore all over but is fine otherwise. Steve MacDonald
Guest 19-Jul-2005 14:57
As an old 1970's SCCA race worker and a Road America worker, I think the course workers did a great job. Dan Evinger previously of Fort Wayne Region
artnnyc 19-Jul-2005 14:56
After all is said and done it was just a "racing incident" which I am quite sure no one expected nor wanted to happen...Lets just be safe and keep racing...safely
Steve 19-Jul-2005 14:54
Why is it that the cheater cars are usually with the most aggressive drivers who on many occassions don't have either the skill set or the good judgement to drive these cars? I was in the #6 camaro and all I can say is the way the start is done at RA is a recipe for disaster. I don't really care how long you have been doing it that way at Road America something needs to be changed. With the cars and attitudes that prevail it will probably happen again. How about enforcing some basic rules like, displacement, tire/wheel size, brakes, trans and weight. The safety crews did such an excellent job of taking care of those who need some help and I thank them. I did talk to Bruce Levin a couple of times yesterday and he is just sore all over but is fine otherwise. Steve MacDonald
Pete 19-Jul-2005 14:53
First-I hope no one was seriously injured.
Second-Is the photo 07-15-05-148 taken at Siebken's Resort bar.
Thanks, Pete Metzger
Guest 19-Jul-2005 13:11
Lets set the record straight...there WAS A GREEN FLAG it just came VERY LATE!
Guest 19-Jul-2005 13:02
I would agree with the post that there is a problem with ego and abilitity, and I understand the cars are not as safe as todays race cars. But to say they are unsafe, look at the pictures, most all walked away unharmed.
just another racer 19-Jul-2005 12:34
Asjust another racer, and one who watched a back marker blow by me at the start last weekend (I qualified 3.5 seconds quicker then he did and he passed me before the start/finish st the start), I know the frustation of start issues. However, fromwhat i have read, it would appear to me to be front driver related. Now why in heck would drivers hit the brakes on a failed start?? We are all taught that even with a Red Flag, first, look up, make sure you are not going to make your own mess, pull off the racing line and stop.....Safely. Bad starts are the same...look up, let off the gas.....you have 4.2 miles to slow the car down, why the heck hit the brakes, knowing (if you have any skill or brains at all) that there are dozens of guys and girls behind you who may not have seen what you saw.....hope it was a great lesson
guest 19-Jul-2005 12:14
As a long time SCCA worker/competitor/steward (30+ years), vintage racing has always scared me and I avoid it. While I am sure there are many conscientious vintage drivers, there seems to be an equal number with more money than brains and powerful egos. There are few rules and even fewer driver requirements. While vintage cars met the safety standards of their day, they are not close to the current standards and are , quite frankly, dangerous. I hope no one was seriously injured in this wreck and I hope it serves as a wake up call to the vintage racing community.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 11:49
As a fellow racer who has had a vintage car reck because of someones elses stupidity you just have to accept the possiblity of this every time you go to the track, it's the risk you take everytime you race. Pointing fingers at this time will just anger everyone, just be happy no one was seriously hurt. Cars are replace-able lives aren't. Just my .02. Oh and my 68 Camaro hit a wall at 135mph then caught fire......we cut the car in half and put it back together......
disgusted 19-Jul-2005 08:41
As a 40 year SCCA/vintage competitor who got caught up in this fiasco & ended up with a wrecked car(s), I say its time to stop pointing fingers & look for answers. This event has long turned into "formula libre" as THERE ARE NO RULES; c'mon 1800 lb Jaguars?, Corvettes at 183 mph thru the traps? no brake or transmission restrictions? Little or no experience for entry necessary? Ridiculous! Worse than HSR & all the crazed cheater PCA Porsches. Have someone who knows these cars, & knows how to police & run, at least this group, do so. The organisers have to take charge & get it under control. At SVRA Mid Ohio, after a couple guys were thrown out for agressive driving in the Sat. qualifying race, the Sun. race became suddenly much calmer, with everybody staying well away from everybody else. Hopefully, this was the wake up call that will get us to clean safe racing.......By the way, the medical & various other safety crews (SCCA) DID do a remarkably efficient & professional job.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 06:17
I think that it is possible to race without jumping the start. It is preferable really, as jumping the start is cheating. If the car in front qualified faster, then they have the right to start the race in a better position. Racing before the race starts is not right, even if almost everyone does it.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 05:29
HIGH PRAISE for the safety workers and all involved in cleaning this up. From prior experience with them, I'm sure the help was first class, and as a spectator, the speed with which they got things rolling again was astounding.

Regardig an earlier post, a Jag did continue to the exit of turn 3, then could not start and had to be towed in.
Mike Griese 19-Jul-2005 05:29
Seems to me, if you don't want people racing in vintage events, you have to stop calling it Vintage Racing.
szautke 19-Jul-2005 04:40
I think we should thank the Road America safety crew who did a great job. I have worked with several tracks on safety (1988-1991)(USAC, Badger Midgets, WoO events) and I was very impressed with their professionalism. Any word on Bruce Leven?
Guest 19-Jul-2005 04:26
OUCH!!!! There goes alot of money. Barret Jackson and Volo will be busy this off season.LOL
artnnyc 19-Jul-2005 03:26
As a participant in HSR events in Group 5,which I believe are the same cars,I can confirm that there are many overly agressive drivers with more horsepower than experience and good judgement. I myself have many years of both SCCA and vintage racing and have the same outlook as some of the other guys..The cars are the stars! Lets just have fun and lose the killer instinct...before it becomes just that..Luckily I hear no major injuries to the participants...however those cars are a different story
Group 6 competitor 19-Jul-2005 03:24
I wasn't there, but I've been a Group 6 driver for 11 years, and I have witnessed an unpleasant trend in recent years that contributed to the selling of my car just last week. When I started it was clearly understood that the "cars were the stars" and we were there to have fun and put on a show for the spectators. (And, yes, get an adrenelin rush now and again). Let the spectaors see the cars they watched 30 or 40 years ago "do battle" once again. But somewhere along the line the attitude changed to "I'm gonna win," and that was/is totally out of place in vintage racing. I hope this serves as a wake-up call. No one wins when vintage cars are destroyed. And for the record, the race starts when the green flag is displayed. You learn that at your first SCCA school, if you didn't know before. I really feel many of the drivers should park their vintage cars and "get it out of their system" in SCCA for a few years, then come back and return vintage racing to what it was intended: a fun weekend for drivers and spectators.
Group 6 competitor 19-Jul-2005 03:02
I wasn't there, but I've been a Group 6 driver for 11 years, and I have witnessed an unpleasant trend in recent years that contributed to the selling of my car just last week. When I started it was clearly understood that the "cars were the stars" and we were there to have fun and put on a show for the spectators. (And, yes, get an adrenelin rush now and again). Let the spectaors see the cars they watched 30 or 40 years ago "do battle" once again. But somewhere along the line the attitude changed to "I'm gonna win," and that was/is totally out of place in vintage racing. I hope this serves as a wake-up call. No one wins when vintage cars are destroyed. And for the record, the race starts when the green flag is displayed. You learn that at your first SCCA school, if you didn't know before. I really feel many of the drivers should park their vintage cars and "get it out of their system" in SCCA for a few years, then come back and return vintage racing to what it was intended: a fun weekend for drivers and spectators.
Guest 19-Jul-2005 01:31
I was the Operating Steward for this race. The green flag did fly. In fact earlier than we would at a SCCA club race. To let more than 8-10 rows and not throw a green would cause more problems. Everyone seems to want to blame the pace car or starter. I don't buy it. I have heard how the track needs to move the start finish line. 50 years we have been starting at the same place. Perhaps the drivers need to take the responsibility to not race until you get to the start finish line. Several classes have unofficial agreements that they will not race until the line. Other groups do not allow passing until after turn 1. This style of event used to be about the people not winning a race. Yes I understand wanting to win. Lets do it safely though.

My $.02 worth.

Mike Engelke
I Was There 19-Jul-2005 01:21
As someone that was in the middle of this mess and having reviewed many of the in car videos, I would like to make the following comments: As with all racing incidents, there are many causes and contributing events. Yes, in this case we can point to this person or that person may have contributed to the incident, but I think it is important that we focus on what was the primary reason for the incident – a late green flag. The first car to car contact was made BEFORE the green flag was displayed (confirmed by in car video) when the front of the pack checked up when the green flag was not given. With the starting conditions as they are at Road America, not being able to see the starter’s flag while climbing the hill at speed, why would you ever want to hold the green flag, partially with a high speed group of cars. This is not pro racing where we are running for great sums of money. If the start is ragged or out of line, so what – throw the green flag. If you are really upset with someone, black flag them or throw a yellow after the start, to regroup the field. Yes, again I admit that that were contributing factors and events, but if the green flag had been thrown at the normal time (even 5 seconds earlier), I believe there would still be 21 race cars racing next weekend instead of being repaired, if some of them are even repairable.
upset 19-Jul-2005 01:01
Ive been going to the July event since the Como Inn days. I can say there has never been a day like yesturday. I was maybe 50 feet from the start finish line when this happened. Ive also seen video footage from a few cars in this race. Let me say that the front row was doing well over 50 at the start. Ive seen video of cars 10+ rows back in third gear under heavy acceleration trying to stay with the front row as they are pulling away. Then as the front row approaches the start they stab their brakes due to no flag. First contact was made before the flag was even droped. The front row is to control the start and the front row failed. In my opinion this accident would not of happened if the front row were to do what they were told. We all have watched racing on tv. You are to hold pace car speed until green is waved. The front row was racing under the walking bridge before the start finish. Of course everyone else will follow. It seems really simple. I dont understand all the finger pointing. no one wanted to left behind and all followed the leaders. The front row I bet is feeling pretty low. I hope we never see another day like this. Im really glad everyone came out with no severe injuries. Lets all learn from this, someday you may be a leader. A good leader
Guest 19-Jul-2005 01:00
I was one of the drivers involved in this unfortunate situation. I really like driving my race car, but like any of these drivers involved, it hurts (in many ways) when something like this happens, and an incident like this should not occur in a truly "vintage race" event. I know I am going to be more than a little "gun shy" with future "starts" after this incident. There are several reasons this particular one happened, it's just that the mistakes all happened at the same time, and "boom" !!

I agree that many of the Group 6 racers are aggressive, maybe some more than they should be. I would be in favor of "single file" starts (based upon qualifying times), with no passing until after a corner or two. At a "vintage event" we don't need picture perfect side by side starts. It's dangerous, and not necessary, especially in vintage racing. If we have a fast race car, we will catch the guy in front of us........... if we don't, who cares !! We just want to drive our cars, and have fun......... something like this is NOT fun.

I hope some changes (w/start procedures) will be considered.

BT
corner worker willy 18-Jul-2005 23:53
From Alpha station, there was ABSOLUTELY a green flag. was it late? I could not tell you. Nor am I experianced enough at corner working to give a great opinion. I was on the phones, and told my fellow workers on the station there was a green, and INSTANTLY said F*** RED RED!!. The 2 guys that were training me, I still see their eyes in my mind, as disbelief, in that millisecond. as they grabbed the red flag (corner after the crash) half the pack could not have seen green, thats a fact. It was that quick. The "leader" I dont think got to turn 3 before beeing stopped. I helped push a few cars "backwards" off the track at pit exit. and remember one guy beeing REAL mad. about the confusion Not sure why,?? he escaped injury, both personal, and auto. Guess the heat got him.. I am SO FREAKING GLAD there was no great injury, and am sick about the auto injuries. I wanted to go to that wreck and try to help, but the people that were training me told me THIS IS YOUR STATION! YOU STAY HERE TILL TOLD DIFFERENT! of course was the correct training. kudos to my 3 trainers.
Guest 18-Jul-2005 23:41
I stand corrected on the blown engine theory

Glad to hear that the cpl drivers who posted are doing ok. The BRIC has provided many years of racing entertainment for us and I hope everyone is able to get back into the game before too long
Guest 18-Jul-2005 22:41
Guest
I was grid #34 and we were moving as fast as the field could to catch up. Before entering 14 i saw the lead cars cresting the hill. When I exited 14 grid 33 and I were at racing speed as the field was way ahead. I did not see any flags at the bridge but that station is hardly visible at the start when we are at racing speed while watching for cars in front, behind or to each side. As I crested the hill the scene was smoke, then debris, and an opening to the left which allowed me to get stopped.
A few have the story correct and these incidents can be avoided with proper flaging and correct pace car speed starting with exiting the false grid. The field must be tight before 12 as was the case with our group 8 pace lap.
crew cheif 18-Jul-2005 22:40
On saturday the pace car was ask to slow down to bunch up the feild. How fast they are
going is not as important as all going the same speed. If the guys in the back are racing
up to the front they will be going alot faster then the leaders and then have to check up,
late flag or not. If bunched up proply there is no room to make big speed diffences,so you
don't get guys driving over and though the pack long after the problem starts.My car was
untoched, but one of the cars on top the pill started behind us. God has blessed us ALL
with another chance to correct this opppps.
Guest 18-Jul-2005 22:00
I have friends that were "in" the pile and ahead of "the pile". I was told the green flag was not given because the stragglers at the rear of the pack had not formed up with the main group. The two front cars were told to maintain a speed of 50 MPH until the flag was given. Unfortunately no one else was informed of the 50 mph speed limit. The fourth and fifth rows had anticipated the green flag and were at full throttle. When they came up on the front 2 or 3 rows doing 50 mph, the brakes came on and it started a chain reaction! Had the green flag been given and concern not given about the back markers, this incident should not have happened. Had someone jumped the start, or tried passing prior to the green flag being given, I could see withholding the green flag, but not for a bunch of stragglers who can't form up in time on a 4.2 mile track at 50 mph. It seems to me to have been a poor decision on the flagman's part. The drivers coming up the hill couldn't see the flag and only did what racers do!
Randy 18-Jul-2005 21:52
One mistake in my statement. P6 did not move to the middle as stated, it was P8. I am a little sore and tired. I hope this makes sense
Randy 18-Jul-2005 21:37
I started in P12 in a Mustang. I did not blow a motor, nor did anyone else. There was no oil down. As the pace car went in and we were going up the hill I was in 2nd gear, as usuall. Things started to get going half way up the hill and I pulled 3rd gear, as I usually have to do at R/A. As I crested the hill I actually slowed to about 3,000 RPM's in 3rd and made the decision to go back to 2nd gear. This would obviously indicate the lead row slowed. Once again the pace picked up and I started to accelerate, pulling third gear. About this time the field started to check in a big way. The few things I can recall is seeing P6 move to the middle of the track. I do remember seeing some contact in front of me, probably the black 'vette being tagged by P9. I had a Jag in front of me. I could not check up in time to avoid him and tagged him, shortly after I was tagged from behind and was sent to the outside wall, then was hit 4 times!

I would be hard pressed to blame just one driver or a flagman. Obvioulsy the closest car to the front with damage was the black vette (P7). P8 also had minor damage to the right rear quarter, possible contact with P7. The blame could easily be put there, but what about the field checking up, from the front. P3 admitted to hitting his brakes shortly before the green flag came out. A lot of blame yesterday was going to the flagger for the late green, I was one of them. But he does control the race and we all needed to stay in line until we saw green. That did not happen. The big problem with a late green is it is not what we are used to. That coupled with the blind spot because of the hill is why we stacked up so many cars.

As far as fist fights, I believe that is a little harsh. I probably was one of the worst, but it was a lot of screaming and four letter words. I do not think one "punch" was ever thrown. I am ashamed for my reaction, and I do thank God myself and my fellow racers were alive. To my defense, I was looking at 2000 hours of labor and 40K that was in rough shape. In 2004 it won the Friday night concours by Road and Track.

I am sure we will be seeing alot of responces to this incident that I sure caused in excess on 1 million in damage. I also hope someone will come up with solutions to try to avoid one like this in the future

Randy
M. B. 18-Jul-2005 21:23
Ignoring the red flag was running rampant. I was at turn three and the first half dozen or so cars that somehow got past the Taladaga style screw-up just blew past the red at the corner station. I was glad to hear the announcer calling a drivers meeting. There was a white Camaro that came by that apparently JUST got by this because his driver side was all mashed in but still drivable.
chuck 18-Jul-2005 21:20
I am glad everyone made it out ok. Thats a lot of unhappy rich white guys right there... :-)
Guest 18-Jul-2005 20:50
Scanner on Corner Net had Race Control asking Pace Car for its speed prior to 14 (Last corner before the hill leading up to the start) Pace car responded 50 MPH. Control responded: sounds good. Prior to the pace car going in at 15 (base of the hill) the "pack" was at the intended speed. It seemed to me that 2 cars jumped the start - one went right (to the wall) the other jumped "up the middle". I saw no smoke, no "engine blew up" indicators until AFTER the crashing started. Once the incident started (I did not see a "root cause"), it just kept going. Cars should NOT be turned sideways at a start! I had to look away: cars just kept crashing into and climbing over each other. Word at the track before the end of the day was there were no life threatening injuries, nothing "major". No other definitions of "major".
guest 18-Jul-2005 20:37
Wow, I did see most of these cars at Mid Ohio in May. Sickening. I hope no one was hurt. Mr. Zappa, I saw your old Chevron at Mid Ohio, too. Beautiful car, but still MUCH nicer in the black and gold. Always one of my favorites!
Guest 18-Jul-2005 20:35
From another website:

"I was the operating steward for this race. The pace car did what was the right thing to do. We gave them instructions for each group. The two pole guys admitted to running up the hill at 5000 rpm in 3rd gear. The fifth place guy was racing well before the green flag and tryed to force his way between the wall and the car in front of him. He started scraping the wall and the guy behind him checked up and the car that hit him started to spin and then it was one after another into them. I am amazed that no one was killed. All the drivers except two had hans devices.

The green flag was in deed thrown. I red flagged the race with in 3 seconds of the green. Even with the red flag the drivers in the back just keep driving into the rear. The red was shown at corner 15(the walk over bridge). The drivers just did not pay attention. All drivers were forced to attend a meeting right after the incident. They were all yelled at. Interesting that in a few classes they are not allowed to pass until after turn 1 (Historic Gran Prix) and turn 3 for Can Am. One historic Gran Prix driver was banned from their series for life due to an incident in the kink.

I have to agree that the drivers in this group are some of the most agressive drivers I have ever seen. More distrubing to me were how many fist fights started after drivers started getting out of there cars. I feel that if they were able to get out they should have been happy they could even move after a incident like this.

I was very happy with how all of our crews came together to work in the heat. We had a steady flow of water for all the rescue crews, ambulance crews and wrecker crews while they were working in over 90 degree heat. What a great team.

Mike Engelke"
guest 18-Jul-2005 20:23
No oil; just a case of starter error in not throwing the flag early enough & bad decisions on starting procedure; & THAN a couple guys getting over aggressive before the green, 1 going up the middle & having to slam on the brakes & clouting the black Corvette turning it around. Than mayhem, I know, I was in it.
guest 18-Jul-2005 20:21
No oil; just a case of starter error in not throwing the flag early enough & bad decisions on starting procedure; & THAN a couple guys getting over aggressive before the green, 1 going up the middle & having to slam on the brakes & clouting the black Corvette turning it around. Than mayhem, I know, I was in it.
63Corvette 18-Jul-2005 19:17
Thank God for fuel cells. Otherwise those poor guys in the middle of the pile would be toast!
Guest 18-Jul-2005 18:43
I was there and the pace car wasn't going too fast. We were just coming up to the front straight from 14 so I could see it clearly as it exited for pit lane

from the people I spoke with who were there as it happend, the Jag blew it's motor just before reaching start/finish and the resuling fluid dump caused the chain reaction.

Big Cudos to the Safety Team for getting it mopped up as fast as they did. The workers really earned their keep this weekend.
Guest 18-Jul-2005 18:22
Interesting rumor Guest, a witness told me that someone got out of line to take the green and hit the wall as they crested the hill which started it. I also heard that the drivers were told not to do the slow-down-then-gun-it tactic, something the leaders have done at other events in the past. I can't say for sure as I only saw the aftermath. The driver's committee have the witness statements.

A couple of drivers were transported to the hospital but I think it was a precaution against neck and back injuries. They were put on backboards as they were removed from their cars.
seventyoneta18-Jul-2005 18:13
OMG!!I think about half of these cars were at Mid-Ohio a month ago?Was anyone seriously hurt?
Guest 18-Jul-2005 17:44
Rumor has it that the pace car was going way too fast. The back of the pack got separated on the warm up lap and were trying to catch up to the rest of pack. The starter did not wave the green flag, so the front of the field slowed down, while the back of the field was already close to race speed trying to catch up. They crested the hill on the front straight and started piling in on the front pack.
Penny 18-Jul-2005 17:43
I have worked for the owner of car #25 for almost 20 years. He is an extremely good and safe driver and has been for years. He is sore, has a broken finger and banged up quite a bit, but thank God he survived. My prayers and thoughts are with you all and wish you a speedy recovery/
Mike Zappa 18-Jul-2005 17:02
It's true oil and tires do not mix!! I was involved in the same type of accident in my B-16 Chevron a year ago. I hope that no one was seriously hurt. The trauma suffered from such an accident takes some time to get over. My prayers are with these guys. The cars can all be fixed....it just takes money. Your health and wellbeing comes first and foremost.

Mike Zappa
Guest 18-Jul-2005 16:45
I was there. It was a sight to behold and very sad. Such beautiful cars. Word was yesterday that a Mustang blew it's engine at the start/finish line. That could have been the start of it all. Oil and tires do not mix.
zedotsix 18-Jul-2005 15:56
Anybody know what the start of this was? Just a bunch of cars going too fast in a narrow spot with no way around, or??
Allen 18-Jul-2005 14:24
What a shame, I hope only everyone's ok!
OneBad93LX18-Jul-2005 14:15
Wow... I just cann't believe my eyes. I am just sick over this. I sure hope nobody was hurt!
Dennis 18-Jul-2005 14:07
Shazzam. I reckon thats one of the biggest accidantes I've seen in my life.
Mark 18-Jul-2005 14:06
I ran with this group last summer, and we had about 10-12 wrecks in Group 6 over the course of the weekend. I'll never go back to the BRIC - to race. The cars are all "cheater" setups, with WAY BIG horsepower, and the drivers are way too agressive. Unfortunately, the track officials and the race sponsors do little to discourage the overly dangerous driving. It has been well known for years that Group 6 at the BRIC is a bunch of wild ass, ego manics, driving cheater cars with big stroker engines and no rules racing. I hope no one was injured, but it was bound to happen sooner or later.
63Corvette 18-Jul-2005 04:04
I am terribly sorry to see this. I have been driving vintage racing since 1984, and have had a racing license continuously since 1971, and I have never seen such an accident. My hopes and prayers go out to those involved, and to their families. As mentioned, cars can be repaired, but bodies cannot. Here's to the speedy recovery of all concerned. Afetr all, it could happen to any of us at any time.

Garrett Waddell
Guest 18-Jul-2005 02:19
Sorry, I hope everyone is ok. JIm
Willy 18-Jul-2005 01:59
Dang that was pretty scarey. Second time in my life working corners, Glad there were two "old hands" with me. I was at alpha corner, and this happened under the start tower.
blake 17-Jul-2005 19:14
Wow, my dad was working corner 1 and told me about this only a few hours ago. Surprised to see pics up so quick. What a mess.
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